Israel, Palestine and Iran

[OutByEaster?]

Is it tomorrow the killing resumes or Tuesday?

[omariqy]

42 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Is it tomorrow the killing resumes or Tuesday?

Not sure will check livescore for kick off times.

Imagine finally having a breather from the terror to then start counting down until your or your family may be bombed to death.

[desensitized43]

On 24/11/2023 at 21:59, omariqy said:

Really hoping this pause is a gateway to a ceasefire. 

Then what though?

Pointless unless it leads to any kind of talks between the sides on some kind of longer term solution but frankly I think we’re beyond that now.

Once they’ve got as many of the hostages out as possible there’s no promise hamas can make that can be trusted. They don’t have a future because they aren’t interested in constructive talking. They’ve got to go and be replaced by someone more moderate that the Israelis can talk to, who don’t have extermination in their charter, and who want to discuss the borders of a viable Palestinian state that are routed in the situation that exist now, not as it was in 1948.

Likewise the Israelis need to acknowledge their role in where we’ve found ourselves and work on genuine faith to ensure that the Palestinians have a viable state.

There’s a solution to be found if everyone could just be reasonable but Hamas have to be destroyed. There’s no way around that.

[Jareth]

15 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

There’s a solution to be found if everyone could just be reasonable but Hamas have to be destroyed. There’s no way around that.

Would you accept your government carpet bombing Northern Ireland in order to kill a handful of terrorists?

[bickster]

7 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Would you accept your government carpet bombing Northern Ireland in order to kill a handful of terrorists?

False equivalence. Israel isn’t carpet bombing Haifa or Be'er Sheva

[Jareth]

21 minutes ago, bickster said:

 Israel isn’t carpet bombing

You sure?

[Jareth]

As I began to write this, here in Khan Younis, southern Gaza, Israeli missiles were striking nearby. Once you get over the initial shock of the loud explosions, the shaking of the house and your knees, the first instinct is to immediately rush to calm the children whose cries somehow seem louder and more painful than the strikes themselves.

Throughout Israel’s invasion, people in northern Gaza have been told to move to the “safety” of the south. But our day-to-day lives here are testament to the fact that in Gaza, nowhere is safe.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/26/israel-south-gaza-strip-pause-fighting

[bickster]

9 minutes ago, Jareth said:

You sure?

I can only assume this intellectual deficit you're displaying is deliberate at this stage

[Jareth]

Just now, bickster said:

I can only assume this intellectual deficit you're displaying is deliberate at this stage

Protesting the slaughter of civilians is intellectually deficient? 

[sne]

Quote

Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed at Historic Pace

Even a conservative assessment of the reported Gaza casualty figures shows that the rate of death during Israel’s assault has few precedents in this century, experts say.

 

Israel has cast the deaths of civilians in the Gaza Strip as a regrettable but unavoidable part of modern conflict, pointing to the heavy human toll from military campaigns the United States itself once waged in Iraq and Syria.

People are being killed in Gaza more quickly, they say, than in even the deadliest moments of U.S.-led attacks in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, which were themselves widely criticized by human rights groups.

It is not just the scale of the strikes — Israel said it had engaged more than 15,000 targets before reaching a brief cease-fire in recent days. It is also the nature of the weaponry itself.

Israel’s liberal use of very large weapons in dense urban areas, including U.S.-made 2,000-pound bombs that can flatten an apartment tower, is surprising, some experts say.

In fighting during this century, by contrast, U.S. military officials often believed that the most common American aerial bomb — a 500-pound weapon — was far too large for most targets when battling the Islamic State in urban areas like Mosul, Iraq, and Raqqa, Syria.

Civilian casualties are notoriously hard to calculate, and officials in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip do not separate the deaths of civilians and combatants.

Researchers point instead to the roughly 10,000 women and children reported killed in Gaza as an approximate — though conservative — measure of civilian deaths in the territory. International officials and experts familiar with the way figures are compiled by health officials in Gaza say the overall numbers are generally reliable.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html

Long article, has some truly extraordinary stats in it.

[desensitized43]

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

Would you accept your government carpet bombing Northern Ireland in order to kill a handful of terrorists?

It’s not carpet bombing. If they wanted to carpet bomb there’d be nothing left. It’s targeted but I’ll admit it some of the photos don’t look great but what can you do when you’ve got extremists hiding in a civilian population using their innocence to stay your hand to deal with them?

The solution has to be dialogue but not with Hamas.

[bickster]

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

Protesting the slaughter of civilians is intellectually deficient? 

This is a football forum, you aren’t protesting about anything. What you appear to be doing is deliberately misreading posts. The posts that were made weren’t complicated to understand. What you're doing is intellectually deficient.

[chrisp65]

12 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

It’s not carpet bombing. If they wanted to carpet bomb there’d be nothing left. It’s targeted but I’ll admit it some of the photos don’t look great but what can you do when you’ve got extremists hiding in a civilian population using their innocence to stay your hand to deal with them?

The solution has to be dialogue but not with Hamas.

 

If its targeted its either deliberate murder of civilians as mass punishment, or the worst most inept **** targeting in the entire history of ethnic cleansing.

 

[sne]

"Targeted" using 2000-pound bombs in densely populated areas...

Edited November 26, 2023 by sne

[Jareth]

13 minutes ago, bickster said:

This is a football forum, you aren’t protesting about anything. What you appear to be doing is deliberately misreading posts. The posts that were made weren’t complicated to understand. What you're doing is intellectually deficient.

On this football forum you ruled out an equivalence to the UK going after the IRA by carpet bombing the shit out of a civilian population - based on the fact that there is no equivalent geographic area in play in this conflict. I note you didn’t dispute that Israel is carpet bombing the shit out of a civilian population. 

[bickster]

13 minutes ago, Jareth said:

On this football forum you ruled out an equivalence to the UK going after the IRA by carpet bombing the shit out of a civilian population - based on the fact that there is no equivalent geographic area in play in this conflict. I note you didn’t dispute that Israel is carpet bombing the shit out of a civilian population. 

Nobody attacks their own territory militarily, hence the absolutely false equivalence (which was painfully obvious from my post and reference to two Israeli cities)I'm not getting involved in a daft semantics argument about the term carpet bombing, I didn’t mention it because it wasn't relevant to the point I was making.

 

[Jareth]

54 minutes ago, bickster said:

Nobody attacks their own territory militarily,

 

Israeli spokespeople have effectively said they consider Gaza, their territory.

[omariqy]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

 

If its targeted its either deliberate murder of civilians as mass punishment, or the worst most inept **** targeting in the entire history of ethnic cleansing.

 

Yeah it’s Patrick Bamford level of targeting. 

[omariqy]

4 hours ago, desensitized43 said:

Then what though?

Pointless unless it leads to any kind of talks between the sides on some kind of longer term solution but frankly I think we’re beyond that now.

Once they’ve got as many of the hostages out as possible there’s no promise hamas can make that can be trusted. They don’t have a future because they aren’t interested in constructive talking. They’ve got to go and be replaced by someone more moderate that the Israelis can talk to, who don’t have extermination in their charter, and who want to discuss the borders of a viable Palestinian state that are routed in the situation that exist now, not as it was in 1948.

Likewise the Israelis need to acknowledge their role in where we’ve found ourselves and work on genuine faith to ensure that the Palestinians have a viable state.

There’s a solution to be found if everyone could just be reasonable but Hamas have to be destroyed. There’s no way around that.

What Palestine don’t need is a stooge government. They need the right to return, ability to control their air space and their coast etc. If you have that then Hamas no longer functions imo. 

[bickster]

20 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Israeli spokespeople have effectively said they consider Gaza, their territory.

They’ve also said that Gaza has its own democratically elected government but that isn’t true either. They'll also tell you that they have a very tightly controlled border with Gaza. None of the population of Gaza can vote in Israel

Gaza is not Israeli, you know, I know it and so do most people, even Israelis.

Israel even passed a law in 2005 to that effect when they completely disengaged from Gaza.