tom_avfc Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I think VAR has been a great success at this World Cup so far (with the exception of last night's game where England should have had a couple of penalties). Even the media who have previously tried to undermine the system haven't had a great deal to shout about. Its a shame that the officials using VAR didn't use it correctly yesterday but that doesn't mean the system itself is not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted June 19, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2018 "Clear and obvious" is the part I have a problem with. It has got most decisions right when it has been used.... ... but there are times where, on replay, it is clearly a penalty but no VAR call. How's that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_avfc Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, ozvillafan said: "Clear and obvious" is the part I have a problem with. It has got most decisions right when it has been used.... ... but there are times where, on replay, it is clearly a penalty but no VAR call. How's that work? I don't think there has been many in this World Cup to be honest other than the two that Kane should have had yesterday. I don't think one game where the VAR officials didn't seem to use the system correctly means that there's a problem with the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted June 19, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, tom_avfc said: I don't think there has been many in this World Cup to be honest other than the two that Kane should have had yesterday. I don't think one game where the VAR officials didn't seem to use the system correctly means that there's a problem with the system. Argentina springs to mind. ... and don't get me started on the one against Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 19, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2018 As I said in the match thread, having seen the two Kane incidents from several angles, while the first one was blatant, I'm not so sure about the second. Yes, the defender put his arm across Kane's shoulder, but Kane then grabbed it, and far from trying to push it away, actually pulled it round his neck and held it there as he went down. Not quite a dive exactly, but arguably six of one and half a dozen of the other - which was possibly why the VAR didn't give it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_avfc Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, mjmooney said: As I said in the match thread, having seen the two Kane incidents from several angles, while the first one was blatant, I'm not so sure about the second. Yes, the defender put his arm across Kane's shoulder, but Kane then grabbed it, and far from trying to push it away, actually pulled it round his neck and held it there as he went down. Not quite a dive exactly, but arguably six of one and half a dozen of the other - which was possibly why the VAR didn't give it. Yeah, I think that's a fair point and does make the second one arguable (and therefore not clear and obvious I suppose). The first one was about as blatant a penalty as you're ever likely to see though and should have been cleared up easily enough with VAR. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 19, 2018 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2018 15 minutes ago, terrytini said: How do you know the VAR team are checking all the things that shoukd be checked ? ( I don’t want to get bogged down by examples but to take a simple one, did they check the wrestling with Kane last night or not ....in each case or not ....and then, .in what way did they decide that - given what the earlier penalty was given for - either ( a) not to check, or (b) check and decide as they did ?). They are checking everything. This doesn't mean nothing will ever be missed. This has been explained. 15 minutes ago, terrytini said: How do you know the VAR team at one game are checking the same things a VAR team at another game are checking ? See above. Again some things may be missed. But in theory everything is checked. 16 minutes ago, terrytini said: How do you know the VAR team are then ‘correctly’ interpreting what they see ? You don't. The inevitably won't interpet everything correctly. Again, VAR is not perfect. it's not meant to be perfect. It's still at the discretion of the officials, just as ANY usual refereeing decision is. 17 minutes ago, terrytini said: How do we know Refs aren’t fudging, or failing to make decisions, knowing VAR will look - bad enough, but then VAR might not even look ? We don't know this. But if they are doing this then they are doing their job incorrectly. Terry, I don't want to sound patronising, but all of this is clear. It's been explained. I think what's unclear is your understanding of the system (and to be fair a lot of people are having similar issues) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDuck Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 19 minutes ago, ozvillafan said: ... and don't get me started on the one against Australia. I thought that was a perfect example of VAR being a positive... no way did it look like a penalty from the initial camera angle, but on review the defender seemed to have quite clearly got the man, not the ball. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted June 19, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, MrDuck said: I thought that was a perfect example of VAR being a positive... no way did it look like a penalty from the initial camera angle, but on review the defender seemed to have quite clearly got the man, not the ball. .. I did say don't get me started Even the official reason for review was incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 19, 2018 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2018 Yeah the France one was a clear pen for me. Another instance of it working well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 40 minutes ago, ozvillafan said: Argentina springs to mind. ... and don't get me started on the one against Australia. Brazil are fuming about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 31 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: They are checking everything. This doesn't mean nothing will ever be missed. This has been explained. See above. Again some things may be missed. But in theory everything is checked. You don't. The inevitably won't interpet everything correctly. Again, VAR is not perfect. it's not meant to be perfect. It's still at the discretion of the officials, just as ANY usual refereeing decision is. We don't know this. But if they are doing this then they are doing their job incorrectly. Terry, I don't want to sound patronising, but all of this is clear. It's been explained. I think what's unclear is your understanding of the system (and to be fair a lot of people are having similar issues) I do understand the system, fully, and I understand the points you’ve made. I don’t share your confidence that everything is being done because they say it is, I don’t think it’s sufficient that we just assume that’s the case. For example...in cricket if an Umpire wants an incident reviewed everybody knows it’s being reviewed. We don’t just have to assume that it’s being done or not done. I’d prefer a clear indication of what’s being reviewed, and a clear indication of when a Ref is asking for a Review. Again, I know it’s not perfect, at no time am I saying it ought to be. But to take your point about Refs interpretation, I don’t think that’s the same as a VAR interpretation. Why, for example, can’t they include in the Stats about a game the VAR observations ? I’m being brief as I’ve no time just now but I’ve enjoyed debating but maintain I don’t think it’s clear enough, I don’t know whether it’s consistent, so for me it’s not right yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Peru should have had a blatant pen against Denmark that wasn't given. Then they got a softer one later in the game after review. No idea how they came to those conclusions but to me it was the old usual compensation rewards. On another note on Swedish telly they showed replays after the England game that showed how Kane backed in and grabbed and dragged the Tunisia defenders arm pulling how down over him so they both fell down and that's why the ref in the Studio felt no pen was given. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDuck Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 The cynic in me thinks that VAR is the perfect opportunity for FIFA to be able to influence the outcome of matches to suit their own agenda... but I've been pleasantly surprised by VAR so far. Not counting the England game of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 9 minutes ago, MrDuck said: The cynic in me thinks that VAR is the perfect opportunity for FIFA to be able to influence the outcome of matches to suit their own agenda... but I've been pleasantly surprised by VAR so far. Not counting the England game of course! I'm the same way. Don't trust FIFA for a second with this technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 19, 2018 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, terrytini said: I do understand the system, fully, and I understand the points you’ve made. I don’t share your confidence that everything is being done because they say it is, I don’t think it’s sufficient that we just assume that’s the case. Sorry Terry, but you're showing here that you don't understand the system 1 hour ago, terrytini said: For example...in cricket if an Umpire wants an incident reviewed everybody knows it’s being reviewed. We don’t just have to assume that it’s being done or not done. I’d prefer a clear indication of what’s being reviewed, and a clear indication of when a Ref is asking for a Review. Again this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the system. The referee does NOT ask for a review. That is the opposite of how it works. The referee is told if he needs to review an incident, and if he is reviewing it he CLEARLY indicates that that is what he's doing. 1 hour ago, terrytini said: Again, I know it’s not perfect, at no time am I saying it ought to be. But to take your point about Refs interpretation, I don’t think that’s the same as a VAR interpretation. Why, for example, can’t they include in the Stats about a game the VAR observations ? I’m being brief as I’ve no time just now but I’ve enjoyed debating but maintain I don’t think it’s clear enough, I don’t know whether it’s consistent, so for me it’s not right yet. I don't understand what you mean. VAR observes everything. It's just a group of refs watching the game and replays on screens. "VAR observations" would be potentially infinite. They watch the whole game. Again I think you're misunderstanding how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 19, 2018 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2018 55 minutes ago, sne said: Peru should have had a blatant pen against Denmark that wasn't given. Then they got a softer one later in the game after review. No idea how they came to those conclusions but to me it was the old usual compensation rewards. On another note on Swedish telly they showed replays after the England game that showed how Kane backed in and grabbed and dragged the Tunisia defenders arm pulling how down over him so they both fell down and that's why the ref in the Studio felt no pen was given. Eh? The Peru pen that was given was one of the most nailed on pens you're likely to see. The only controversy there is how the ref missed it in the first place. Again perfect evidence of a clear and obvious mistake that was rectified. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 15 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Eh? The Peru pen that was given was one of the most nailed on pens you're likely to see. The only controversy there is how the ref missed it in the first place. Again perfect evidence of a clear and obvious mistake that was rectified. Yes, but there was one earlier in the game that was even more blatant, eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 19, 2018 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2018 8 minutes ago, sne said: Yes, but there was one earlier in the game that was even more blatant, eh. Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were saying that the penalty they were given wasn't a penalty. My bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 3 hours ago, mjmooney said: As I said in the match thread, having seen the two Kane incidents from several angles, while the first one was blatant, I'm not so sure about the second. Yes, the defender put his arm across Kane's shoulder, but Kane then grabbed it, and far from trying to push it away, actually pulled it round his neck and held it there as he went down. Not quite a dive exactly, but arguably six of one and half a dozen of the other - which was possibly why the VAR didn't give it. The ref did the gesture after the second one to suggest Kane had dived... so not sure why he wasn't booked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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