magnkarl Posted January 5, 2023 Share Posted January 5, 2023 6 hours ago, LondonLax said: Well it is kind of relevant when discussing whether a Russian citizen who has been called up to compulsory military service and is being shot at and mortared by *what he believes* are Ultra Nationalist Ukrainians, hell bent on wiping out Russian speakers from eastern Ukraine. Ultra Nationalists who *he believes* have been created and supported by the USA in order to destroy and destabilise the previous good relationship between the people of Russia and Ukraine, which *he believes* had this previously good relationship for decades before the USA and NATO began meddling. He possibly does feel like he is on the side of righteousness and justice when he shoots at a Ukrainian soldier, based on the information he has been given over his lifetime in Russia. I would say it is more absurd to believe 144m Russians know they are “the bad guys” but don’t mind killing Ukrainians anyway. The thing is millions of Russians have vpns, they see videos, evidence and have access to non-bs media. It’s not 1936. The excuse about not having a moral compass due to brainwashing doesn’t really hold up in this day and age. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 5, 2023 6 minutes ago, magnkarl said: The thing is millions of Russians have vpns, they see videos, evidence and have access to non-bs media. It’s not 1936. The excuse about not having a moral compass due to brainwashing doesn’t really hold up in this day and age. There are also a very large amount of cross-border families that are still able to communicate with each other 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted January 5, 2023 Share Posted January 5, 2023 The Russian people don’t give two ****, they support the war to a high degree but object to the fact they aren’t winning. Anyway, second wave of mobilisation is already underway. You’ll know they are against the war when they are protesting against mobilisation. I’ll wait. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayls Posted January 5, 2023 Share Posted January 5, 2023 20 minutes ago, Awol said: The Russian people don’t give two ****, they support the war to a high degree but object to the fact they aren’t winning. Anyway, second wave of mobilisation is already underway. You’ll know they are against the war when they are protesting against mobilisation. I’ll wait. Are the reported numbers true? Talk of hitting that one million mark for mobilisation. Surely that’s not sustainable in any way shape or form both in terms of being able to provide equipment/support and then dealing with any upheaval? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 5, 2023 Share Posted January 5, 2023 11 minutes ago, Tayls said: Are the reported numbers true? Talk of hitting that one million mark for mobilisation. Surely that’s not sustainable in any way shape or form both in terms of being able to provide equipment/support and then dealing with any upheaval? Russia doesn’t have the small arms to support such numbers, let alone armour, gear and uniforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted January 5, 2023 Share Posted January 5, 2023 They’ll just have to share guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted January 5, 2023 Share Posted January 5, 2023 14 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Russia doesn’t have the small arms to support such numbers, let alone armour, gear and uniforms. They do, it’s older shitty kit but they don’t throw stuff away. It won’t change the outcome, but will lengthen the war and cost Ukrainian lives, but ultimately Russia will lose - and has to. Conqueroring neighbouring countries by force (and full blown genocide) is a precedent we cannot accept. There’s no ambiguity, this is about defeating resurgent fascism in Europe. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 5, 2023 Share Posted January 5, 2023 27 minutes ago, Tayls said: Are the reported numbers true? Talk of hitting that one million mark for mobilisation. Surely that’s not sustainable in any way shape or form both in terms of being able to provide equipment/support and then dealing with any upheaval? 1.5m new taking full mobilisation numbers to well over 2m. It still wont be enough 10 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said: They’ll just have to share guns. Or one AK to every 5 troops. They've done it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 5, 2023 Share Posted January 5, 2023 Lol. Must be expecting cuddles the plum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, magnkarl said: The thing is millions of Russians have vpns, they see videos, evidence and have access to non-bs media. It’s not 1936. The excuse about not having a moral compass due to brainwashing doesn’t really hold up in this day and age. I think peoples bias runs a little deeper than that. It’s not as simple as reading a western news story and suddenly deciding your whole worldview is wrong (no more that you would adopt a Russian viewpoint after reading a pro-Russian article). In fact there are plenty in the West who see the Russian side and find it compelling (and conversely I imagine there are some people in Russia who think their government is to blame). Any plausible propaganda, including the Russian narrative, starts with an anchor in truth that is then twisted or exaggerated to create a world view that is extreme but still acceptable to many people. Added to that, verifiable pro-Western / pro-Ukrainian propaganda does also exist in the information space, allowing people to dismiss all pro-Ukrainian claims as just a continuation of that propaganda. If any one of us on here had grown up in Russia we would probably see all Western “main stream media” as being the untrustworthy propaganda, regardless of having a VPN or not. This assertion is supported by how many Russians support their countries actions, we’d most likely just be one of them. We’re not fundamentally different humans, we’ve just grown up in a very different way. As noted, there are even a not insignificant number of people who grew up in the West who think this way (and they are not all receiving Russian roubles on the side). Given that, then I can only imagine how distrusting the average Russian would be of something they read in the Daily Mail or the Sun or “western news” etc It comes down to the fact that it is very difficult for a person to put themselves in the lived experience of another person, and even more difficult when we have views that are in extreme opposition to each other. That difficulty in understanding how a person could possibly see things so differently from themselves is the source of a lot of conflict. Edited January 6, 2023 by LondonLax 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 6, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 6, 2023 3 hours ago, LondonLax said: We’re not fundamentally different humans, we’ve just grown up in a very different way. Another factor is the proven mechanism whereby it's a challenge to con/mislead/fool a human, but once they are fooled, it's far, far harder to convince them that they have been mislead. In other words, once someone believes the propoganda, counter arguments get dismissed. And people in Russia, even if they have the means to seek out non Russian state information, have been exposed to a lifetime of brainwashing. They may not fully believe all of it, but it's a big step to actively taking the western view as "the truth". 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 Russian soldiers keep having their phones on with location services and geo tagging when they're congregating. It's another thing that is totally Benny Hill about the Russian armed forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 8 hours ago, Awol said: They do, it’s older shitty kit but they don’t throw stuff away. It won’t change the outcome, but will lengthen the war and cost Ukrainian lives, but ultimately Russia will lose - and has to. Conqueroring neighbouring countries by force (and full blown genocide) is a precedent we cannot accept. There’s no ambiguity, this is about defeating resurgent fascism in Europe. Well, they might technically have the numbers, but looking at the kit this first wave of mobiks got, I'm not sure giving soldiers a gun with a rusted barrel not capable of shooting qualifies as small arms. A hatchet? Sure. I'm sure they can throw said rusty AK-47 or PPS-42 at the Ukrainians if they get close, and I'm sure they can wear their SSh-40 helmets from 1940 proudly. I'm just not sure it'll work too well. (thankfully) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 20 hours ago, magnkarl said: Rheinmetall is a German company. The only component in the Leopard that is Swiss (in some cases) is the ammunition. The company itself has said they have no issue with it, and have refurbished several other vehicle types to send (M1117's for example). It's German MOD, Scholz and the left of his party that is holding it back. The two other producers of the Leopard 2 are also German. Rheinmetall also produced the IRIS-T and other German equipment already sent. The excuse from the German government was that no one has sent Western tanks so far, so this French tank being sent will put a big dent in their excuse. And the hypo-criticality in Swiss 'neutrality' when they're one of the largest producers of ammunition in the world is just beyond me tbh. It only took one day for Scholz to renage on his last excuse, now that the US and France have committed light tanks. Good job Biden and Macron. US and Germany agree to send infantry fighting vehicles to Ukraine Quote Joe Biden and Olaf Scholz indicate shift in position on supplying heavier weapons to Kyiv to help in war against Russia The noise coming from Washington seems to indicate that Biden is tired of European leaders (Orban anyone?) dragging their feet as to not upset Putin, I hope this is the final step before the main battle frames roll into the conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted January 6, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 6, 2023 45 minutes ago, magnkarl said: The noise coming from Washington seems to indicate that Biden is tired of European leaders (Orban anyone?) dragging their feet as to not upset Putin, I hope this is the final step before the main battle frames roll into the conflict. European leaders have really let the side down with this war, they have shown a weakness that Putin has tried to exploit. Without the USA Russia would have probably marched straight through the Ukraine and would now be knocking on Poland's door. It's a good job Trump isn't in the Whitehouse. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 6, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 6, 2023 7 minutes ago, tinker said: European leaders have really let the side down with this war, they have shown a weakness that Putin has tried to exploit. Without the USA Russia would have probably marched straight through the Ukraine and would now be knocking on Poland's door. It's a good job Trump isn't in the Whitehouse. Nonsense, Some European leaders maybe but most have been on point from the start. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 It also seems most European countries (and even the US to some extent) we’re not really set up or prepared for a conventional military campaign like this. All defence and intel investment had been focused on counterterrorism type operations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, tinker said: European leaders have really let the side down with this war, they have shown a weakness that Putin has tried to exploit. Without the USA Russia would have probably marched straight through the Ukraine and would now be knocking on Poland's door. It's a good job Trump isn't in the Whitehouse. I agree with Bicks on this one. There are plenty of leaders that have been totally on Ukraine's side for the whole conflict. Denmark, Netherlands, Finland, the Baltic States, Poland, Slovakia, Italy, Macedonia, UK, Spain, Portugal +++ have all given pretty much all their operational free capacity (apart from maybe U.K). The ones dragging their feet are obvious and large in France and Germany, along with Bulgaria (getting better now), Romania and Hungary. Germany and France seemed almost petulent in the start, Macron likely because he wants to be the guy that is in the centre of all decisions and he isn't on Ukraine and Scholz because Germany have been extremely addicted to Russian gas and probably has the highest amount of Putin shills in power of any Western European nation. Heck even Erdogan has given an enormous amount of AFV's, drones and other tech before almost anyone (bar maybe Holland (PzH 2000) and Norway (M109 and NASAMs) did anything. Some extremely honourable mentions are North Macedonia giving Ukraine all their operational tanks, Spain donating almost all their winter uniforms and Turkey letting Ukraine co-develop their own version of the Bayraktar in Turkey. There are also states in between, like Sweden, who have given a lot, but have a lot of very useful tech in storage (Sweden makes the best AFV's in the world and have a lot standing around). Edited January 6, 2023 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted January 6, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 6, 2023 3 hours ago, blandy said: Another factor is the proven mechanism whereby it's a challenge to con/mislead/fool a human, but once they are fooled, it's far, far harder to convince them that they have been mislead. Exhibit 1. Brexit 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted January 6, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 6, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, bickster said: Nonsense, Some European leaders maybe but most have been on point from the start. https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/ Edited January 6, 2023 by tinker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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