Popular Post Panto_Villan Posted March 14, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 14, 2022 1 minute ago, magnkarl said: I’ve used many of these sources myself, so I’m not sure who you’re aiming at here. Go back to the start of this conflict in this thread, and look at people suggesting Russia would steamroll Ukraine. It hasn’t happened. It’s not being overly optimistic to show credible sources (Kiev indie aside), a ton of these sources show that Russia is severely struggling almost everywhere. We might be rooting for the same side, but some people can’t help themselves talking Ukraine’s army down and bragging about Russia. I'm aiming at you, because you accuse me of pessimism because I point out the factual inaccuracies in what you post - the most recent two being unverified claims of shooting down loads of aircraft and the one before that being that the M-72 was some kind of super-Javelin. And there's been plenty more I just can't be arsed to correct you on. I can't see anyone in this thread "bragging about Russia", just people trying to temper their (and your) optimism with reality. Since day 1 of this crisis you've argued that the Russian army is weak and lacking in effective hardware compared to NATO despite the money spent on modernisation. You're right about that. In fact, I'm happy to admit that your assessment of the hardware limitations of the Russian military was closer to reality than mine. But you probably think our views were worlds apart on that front, but we're not - I never thought the Ukrainians would be a pushover, I just thought the modernised Russian tanks would be more resistant to anti-tank weapons, etc. Nothing that changes the fundamentals of the war. What was different between you and most other people on these forums is that you looked at that shortcoming and thought NATO should just start a war with Putin over it, whereas everyone else is understandably a bit concerned about the chances of nuclear war or substantial NATO troop losses in a confrontation with Russia. You've been saying stuff like "I don't get why we're scared of the Russian army, we shouldn't make concessions to Putin" as if nobody else thinks we could win a war with Russia. Actually people are just worried about the cost of doing so. And they're right to be worried - you might not think Putin is going to start firing nukes around but the costs if you're wrong are absolutely enormous. The same principle applies to evaluating the competence of hostile military forces. The Russians have just shown you exactly how badly things can go wrong if you underestimate an opponent, yet you're still deriding people who made the entirely reasonable assumption prior to the war that the Russians would be able to use their military forces competently. In this war Putin spent months telling the Ukranians he was going to invade them, giving them time to prepare and recieve significant amounts of Western anti-tank equipment, and then lied to his own forces about whether the invasion would happen which prevented them from planning effectively, and then sent them in with suicidal orders to try and blitz Kiev and other major cities, causing them to take heavy losses and give the Ukranian forces the opportunity to rally even more international support behind them. Now the Russians are in a quagmire they can't get out of. The fact Russian forces are now in a quagmire does not mean that they weren't superior to the Ukranian forces on paper, and that people shouldn't be trying to avoid a conflict with them. Even the best army can be hobbled by political factors; if the Russians had attacked sooner and conducted a competent operation from start to finish then I suspect things would be very different. Instead Putin did literally everything wrong and the Ukranians and the West did pretty much everything right. This is basically the dream scenario for the West. And yet the Russians are still fighting and killing hundreds of Ukranian civilians and causing billions of dollars of damage to Ukraine every day. I'm sure all their lives and livelihoods are a sacrifice you're willing to make, but not everyone is so blase about that sort of thing. At the end of the day sensible people plan for the worst and hope for the best, whereas you just seem to plan for the best and imply anyone who has reservations is a cheerleader for Russia. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 14, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Panto_Villan said: I'm aiming at you, because you accuse me of pessimism because I point out the factual inaccuracies in what you post - the most recent two being unverified claims of shooting down loads of aircraft and the one before that being that the M-72 was some kind of super-Javelin. And there's been plenty more I just can't be arsed to correct you on. I can't see anyone in this thread "bragging about Russia", just people trying to temper their (and your) optimism with reality. Since day 1 of this crisis you've argued that the Russian army is weak and lacking in effective hardware compared to NATO despite the money spent on modernisation. You're right about that. In fact, I'm happy to admit that your assessment of the hardware limitations of the Russian military was closer to reality than mine. But you probably think our views were worlds apart on that front, but we're not - I never thought the Ukrainians would be a pushover, I just thought the modernised Russian tanks would be more resistant to anti-tank weapons, etc. Nothing that changes the fundamentals of the war. What was different between you and most other people on these forums is that you looked at that shortcoming and thought NATO should just start a war with Putin over it, whereas everyone else is understandably a bit concerned about the chances of nuclear war or substantial NATO troop losses in a confrontation with Russia. You've been saying stuff like "I don't get why we're scared of the Russian army, we shouldn't make concessions to Putin" as if nobody else thinks we could win a war with Russia. Actually people are just worried about the cost of doing so. And they're right to be worried - you might not think Putin is going to start firing nukes around but the costs if you're wrong are absolutely enormous. The same principle applies to evaluating the competence of hostile military forces. The Russians have just shown you exactly how badly things can go wrong if you underestimate an opponent, yet you're still deriding people who made the entirely reasonable assumption prior to the war that the Russians would be able to use their military forces competently. In this war Putin spent months telling the Ukranians he was going to invade them, giving them time to prepare and recieve significant amounts of Western anti-tank equipment, and then lied to his own forces about whether the invasion would happen which prevented them from planning effectively, and then sent them in with suicidal orders to try and blitz Kiev and other major cities, causing them to take heavy losses and give the Ukranian forces the opportunity to rally even more international support behind them. Now the Russians are in a quagmire they can't get out of. The fact Russian forces are now in a quagmire does not mean that they weren't superior to the Ukranian forces on paper, and that people shouldn't be trying to avoid a conflict with them. Even the best army can be hobbled by political factors; if the Russians had attacked sooner and conducted a competent operation from start to finish then I suspect things would be very different. Instead Putin did literally everything wrong and the Ukranians and the West did pretty much everything right. This is basically the dream scenario for the West. And yet the Russians are still fighting and killing hundreds of Ukranian civilians and causing billions of dollars of damage to Ukraine every day. I'm sure all their lives and livelihoods are a sacrifice you're willing to make, but not everyone is so blase about that sort of thing. At the end of the day sensible people plan for the worst and hope for the best, whereas you just seem to plan for the best and imply anyone who has reservations is a cheerleader for Russia. Way too long. Couldn't be bothered 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 36 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Even @oryxspioenkop is a little problematic because the Ukrainians are much more keen to display their trophies over social media than the Russians are, who are still trying to downplay the whole thing. It seems like every time a Russian tank is hit a Ukrainian is keen to take a photo or video and upload it but the Russian soldiers are not really doing that as far as I can see. Yeah, of course. The photo evidence is just there to serve as a baseline rather than a complete count of casualties for both sides - I just mentioned the numbers to illustrate that relying on verified data doesn't necessarily imply you're trying to talk down Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 5 minutes ago, sidcow said: Way too long. Couldn't be bothered TL;DR: wars have real costs for real people, and it's better to overestimate an opponent than underestimate them. Following those two rules is not "bragging about Russia". I could have saved myself about 15 minutes if you'd said that earlier! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 I much prefer seeing this sort of thing, than the " Us vs. Them " mobb mentality it seems the British Rags seem to be having a field day promoting among Civilians. Hopefully this post is " Russian " enough in topic to feature on the thread, and just pro Ukraine enough in nature to not get anyone hot under the collar. ( Sort of like the American funded Biochemical labs, which never existed - until they suddenly did ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 14, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 14, 2022 Significant 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 14, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 14, 2022 That is big news - it's always dangerous for Israel to acknowledge that sanctions are an option for dealing with nationalist aggression. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 14, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 14, 2022 8 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: I much prefer seeing this sort of thing, than the " Us vs. Them " mobb mentality it seems the British Rags seem to be having a field day promoting among Civilians. Hopefully this post is " Russian " enough in topic to feature on the thread, and just pro Ukraine enough in nature to not get anyone hot under the collar. ( Sort of like the American funded Biochemical labs, which never existed - until they suddenly did ) Protect mixing politics with sport? They are inseparable. The caption is therefore utterly stupid The banner is actually just asking a Russian and a Ukrainian to get on for the sake of the team, there's a massive disconnect between the banner and the caption 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 I read somewhere today that India is to bulk buy Russia's surplus oil for a discounted price. Not exactly in tune in the western world's position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 Just now, The Fun Factory said: I read somewhere today that India is to bulk buy Russia's surplus oil for a discounted price. Not exactly in tune in the western world's position. Didn’t the UK just sign a trade deal with India? Cheap oil via the back door? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post trekka Posted March 14, 2022 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted March 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Genie said: Cheap oil via the back door? That is just too crude. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 14, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 14, 2022 Just now, The Fun Factory said: I read somewhere today that India is to bulk buy Russia's surplus oil for a discounted price. Not exactly in tune in the western world's position. I can't remember exactly what happened but India was one of the nations who sided with or abstained on some UN voting on Russia. They need to be careful because The West have been investing a lot in India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 14, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 14, 2022 Quote Squatters invade £25m London mansion of Russian oligarch in protest over war in Ukraine LBC 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, sidcow said: I can't remember exactly what happened but India was one of the nations who sided with or abstained on some UN voting on Russia. They need to be careful because The West have been investing a lot in India. Yeah but 1- Russia supplies about 70% of their military equipment and 2- they need this to protect the borders with China and Pakistan. I am also interested to see how the Turkey-Russia relationship is going to play out. Before all of this Erdogan was shifting towards Russia, even though they are a NATO member. I wonder if this has made them worried about the balance of power in the Black Sea. Edited March 14, 2022 by The Fun Factory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 14, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 14, 2022 (edited) Apparently Elon Musk has challenged Putin to a one on one one fight for the Future of Ukraine. Just when you thought he couldn't get any nuttier he raises the bar again. Edited March 14, 2022 by sidcow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekka Posted March 14, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 14, 2022 (edited) In other news, it appears that Elon Musk has challenged Putin to a fight. EDIT: beaten to it by @sidcow Edited March 14, 2022 by trekka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said: I read somewhere today that India is to bulk buy Russia's surplus oil for a discounted price. Not exactly in tune in the western world's position. possibly via the RMB using Chinese banks as a third party India is already the worlds third biggest oil importer , but doesn't have the correct refineries for Russian oil , doesn't have any shipping tankers and doesn't have the necessary insurance cover and the high premiums would negate the discounted price .. so its not that straight forward 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 Anyone know if Elon Musk has any ideas how to resolve the war? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MessiWillSignForVilla Posted March 14, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, sidcow said: Apparently Elon Musk has challenged Putin so a one on one one fight for the Future of Ukraine. Just when you thought he couldn't get any nuttier he raises the bar again. If letting Russia annex Ukraine is the price to pay for seeing someone beat the shit out of Elon Musk, then so be it 1 1 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 (edited) 26 minutes ago, bickster said: Protect mixing politics with sport? They are inseparable. The caption is therefore utterly stupid The banner is actually just asking a Russian and a Ukrainian to get on for the sake of the team, there's a massive disconnect between the banner and the caption It's the general message of unity among Civilians I was referring to, to be fair. Yeah the keeping politics out of sport part doesn't make any sense in the context. Basically, I wish I saw more of this sort of thing in general. For example, I saw a feature yesterday, where there is a little bar called " Russia Brewers " or something like that ( Think its in the States but can't quite remember ) Them and their employees have been getting abuse on the phone, online , and their premises vandalised etc. Irony being, something like 75 percent of their staff are Ukrainian and they have a support system for those affected by the war. The sort of brainless behaviour, which is encouraged by some of the rhetoric imo. As in many other things in life we know, these things often give idiots and excuse to come out the woodwork and behave badly. Also saw a headline the other day, claiming that Facebook will " allow " " calls for violence and threats against Russians ". You get warnings and bans for misgendering or using the wrong pronouns over there, for example, so it's all very ironic. Bizarre. Edited March 14, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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