AshVilla Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 I didn't know the VT rule that players get better the less they are on the pitch applied to managers as well i guess it has been 2 weeks since our last game so Bruce has had some respite. Lets not forget how bad we have been shall we, my prediction is normal service will be resumed once the next away game comes around and Hutton shakes off that injury of his and walks straight back into the starting lineup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 1 hour ago, villarocker said: I know it's only 5 games mate and that's what worries me about him going on about FFP. It is like he's getting his excuses in early. We know about our financial restrictions but, despite them, he has arguably the strongest squad of players in this league to work with so there's really no need to mention the FFP restrictions, unless of course he felt that he needed to buy even more players. I don't know the context of how/why he defended himself against FFP, maybe someone had a pop at why such low grade recruits.....just guessing. I just take the view that don't be surprised if someone has a pop back if you attack them.....just a general thumb rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 56 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said: The problem is that prior to Norwich I saw no development at all compared to the first game in charge. At that time I was positive because I thought we looked more solid and diciplined comapred to under RDM and had excpected us to kick on. But the I didn't see any signs of improvement. Regardless of formation or players, it was the same. Then I hoped that a pre season with his own players would show some improvement, but was met by the Cardiff and Reading performances. I think the Norwich example shows quite clearly that the players react to the instructions given to them and made me even more convinced that the fault lays with the management team and not the players. To draw a parallell with the first part of Paul Lambert's last season in charge; a lot of us criticised Lambert for not playing any possession football, then suddenly he made his visit to the Bayern München training ground and came back with a radical change of style of play where we suddenly didn't do anything els than pass the ball around in our own half (he even got Guzan to try to pass the ball all the time instead of kicking it away) winning possession in every game, although not winning any games. That showed how even average players very quickly can adapt to new styles of play and the instructions the manager gives them. Bruce at some point criticised our play and (exactly like McLeish) said he didn't tell the players to pass it sideways etc. Well the question is rather: what does he tell the players to do? Good managers makes the players understand the style of play they want the team to play and implements it. For the most part of last season it looked like the players didn't have a clue what to do when they got the ball. Defensively they knew what to do, they were quite well drilled and sat back defending. But when we got the ball they just looked lost. I'm still hoping that he will get it right, but I have almost lost my hope and I'm not sure he is the answer in the long run. For now though I am pleased with the way he has at least slightly released the shackles and let the players attack more. I am not knocking your opinion, you are entitled to it, but just interested. what convinced you of the clear indication that the players reacted to his instructions in the Norwich game and I take it by omission they ignored them in the previous games? What makes you think he has released the shackles to let the players attack more.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 2 hours ago, AshVilla said: I didn't know the VT rule that players get better the less they are on the pitch applied to managers as well i guess it has been 2 weeks since our last game so Bruce has had some respite. Lets not forget how bad we have been shall we, my prediction is normal service will be resumed once the next away game comes around and Hutton shakes off that injury of his and walks straight back into the starting lineup. Let's just hope he has had time to reflect on things and improve everything hey? At the end of the day, it is our future as a club at stake. So as much as I have little faith in him to turn it around, I would still prefer if he did, so we can at least get promoted. smh 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, TRO said: The interesting thing for me is, despite all the derogatory remarks made against our current manager, to my knowledge no one has come on here in a positive light and listed exactly what they would be happy with should Steve Bruce do it. It is very easy to line yourselves up in a duck shoot, but it is only fair to say what you would like to see, so a line can be drawn. its no good saying we want to win games.....because the is so blindly obvious. I'm talking about trying to be fair to any guy is looking for an answer. What is is it you want to see?what would make you happy? lets be positive and dump negativity. WHAT?????????? There are numerous posts about this. I have written at least twice what I would like to see from him, what I would find acceptable. I'm reading your posts TRO and fair play for sticking to your guns but my word - how you have such faith in Bruce is beyond belief. It is almost like you are either not reading people's posts and think people have just got it in for Bruce and therefore ignore their opinions or you are not understanding how desperate our situation has become. If you think Bruce can turn this around I think you are going to be very disappointed by the next few months. Edited September 7, 2017 by TheStagMan 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 9 hours ago, AJ said: That would be frickin awesome. As long as we back it up. Yes, it won't work when the opposition team immediately fall about laughing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, TheStagMan said: WHAT?????????? There are numerous posts about this. I have written at least twice what I would like to see from him, what I would find acceptable. I'm reading your posts TRO and fair play for sticking to your guns but my word - how you have such faith in Bruce is beyond belief. It is almost like you are either not reading people's posts and think people have just got it in for Bruce and therefore ignore their opinions or you are not understanding how desperate our situation has become. If you think Bruce can turn this around I think you are going to be very disappointed by the next few months. Sorry mate.....never seen it.....perhaps you can let me know the posts reference and i will have a gander. I am reading peoples posts but in the main, its a gripe about tactics and team selection....over and over again. i have heard fans moan about that since the year dot....its nothing new.The england managers get it too. We would all pick different faces for the match.....and possibly different formations.....but even with formations, they morph during a match. For me the players have to perform.....its largely down to them on match day. The manager can only do so much. If he can't get a tune out of this lot now, then it is down to him for buying them. Edited September 7, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 Its interesting for me how many of the things aimed at Steve Bruce were aimed at Tim sherwood & RDM .....Remi seemed to get most of the empathy that was flying around and understandably so.....but the same criticism about what happened on the pitch was still there.....lack of goals etc paul Lambert had 3 years and much of the same problems and they were still there during his tenure of poor win ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villabromsgrove Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 15 minutes ago, TRO said: Sorry mate.....never seen it.....perhaps you can let me know the posts reference and i will have a gander. I am reading peoples posts but in the main, its a gripe about tactics and team selection....over and over again. i have heard fans moan about that since the year dot....its nothing new.The england managers get it too. We would all pick different faces for the match.....and possibly different formations.....but even with formations, they morph during a match. For me the players have to perform.....its largely down to them on match day. The manager can only do so much. If he can't get a tune out of this lot now, then it is down to him for buying them. I get the impression TRO that you've moved away from Bruce's management specifically, and you're starting to generalise about the respective responsibilities of both players and managers. The evidence of my own eyes is clearly that Steve Bruce set's up his team negatively. He requires a deep sitting midfield closely linked to a deep defence. The space between the midfield and our isolated striker in every match make this blindingly obvious. The out ball is either lofted over the top or given to our right sided full back to run out with. It's a system which he has used during his time as our manager and is clearly recognised by Villa fans, and opposition managers alike. How can players be held accountable for not being more creative when the manager's requirements place them in a straight jacket? 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 23 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said: I get the impression TRO that you've moved away from Bruce's management specifically, and you're starting to generalise about the respective responsibilities of both players and managers. The evidence of my own eyes is clearly that Steve Bruce set's up his team negatively. He requires a deep sitting midfield closely linked to a deep defence. The space between the midfield and our isolated striker in every match make this blindingly obvious. The out ball is either lofted over the top or given to our right sided full back to run out with. It's a system which he has used during his time as our manager and is clearly recognised by Villa fans, and opposition managers alike. How can players be held accountable for not being more creative when the manager's requirements place them in a straight jacket? I would accept that in the main and i think i made reference of commendation to a post you wrote on the same subject a while back.i think your theory is accurate.i think they do sit too deep and i honestly thought John Terry would change that. However, he has had success with his style, albeit win ratio' s have admittedly been modest.....so maybe problems remain elsewhere too. I haven't moved away from anything but i suspect one factor is rarely the only culprit. I accept that Steve Bruce has a tendency to play cautious football, but judging by his antics and animation during a game it is doubtful all the players are following his instructions fully. Look, i am the first to admit, that the buck stops with the manager.....i just happen to believe that due to some of the stuff i see from individual players, its not all in his court. I don't profess to know the answer, unless the players are just not good enough, but blimey we have had enough stabs at that.....but equally we have had enough managers too, who have attracted similar criticisms from corners of the fan base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villabromsgrove Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 TRO, I think Bruce needs to adopt your signature .... "Fortune favours the brave". In my opinion we have one the best couple of squads in the Championship, we now need to play to their combined attacking strengths. This league is there for the taking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, villabromsgrove said: TRO, I think Bruce needs to adopt your signature .... "Fortune favours the brave". In my opinion we have one the best couple of squads in the Championship, we now need to play to their combined attacking strengths. This league is there for the taking! On paper i think you are right.....but it needs to be converted on to the pitch. I am not the Steve Bruce advocate that my comments some times suggest....and I am a great believer Good teams always have good managers.....but not to contradict my self too much, but i see things on match day that i question is it the managers or coaches fault....players too have to take responsibility.....hence the amount of changes at times. Gerard Houllier had a win Ratio of 52% at Liverpool and 35% with us.....same manager, with same thoughts, but different players, makes you think. Remi Garde had a win ratio of 52 % @ Lyon and unmentionable with us Tim Sherwood had a win ration of 50% at Tottenham and 37%with us A manager is only as good as his player and yes when he has bought a load, that is then down to him. I am not saying any data is conclusive evidence, such is the logistics of it all, but it does raise questions. However Remi was unable to instigate any continetal modern thinking philosphy that some crave and neither did Houllier.....mitigating circumstaces permitting. For me, whoever we get in to manage our team....i just don't think it will be a quick fix, even if we dump SB and get another.....we need to capture a winning mentality, but SB knows that, its just not that easy to achieve. I think things will turn when we least expect them to.....so much for design hey. Edited September 7, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keener window-cleaner Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 20 hours ago, TRO said: I am not knocking your opinion, you are entitled to it, but just interested. what convinced you of the clear indication that the players reacted to his instructions in the Norwich game and I take it by omission they ignored them in the previous games? What makes you think he has released the shackles to let the players attack more.? The answer to both questions is simply how the team was set up and how we played. Against Reading (and in almost every previous game under Bruce) we have sat back defending, whereas in the Norwich game, after the preassure against Bruce in the media etc, we didn't sit back like before, but continously attacked, attacked in numbers and created many chances. This must surly be because Bruce gave the team instructions to play more adventurous and take more risks going forward. It's quite interesting if this wasn't the case and it wasn't because of Bruce's instructions. If Bruce didn't give the team any particular instructions to attack in the Norwich game and he during his 10 months here actually have intended to play like that all the time and has instructed the players to do so, but they consistently have put in the dire defensive performances we have seen, then Bruce must be kicked out immediatly as he obviously cant get his ideas across to the players. So either way you look at it, Bruce doesn't come out in good light. Either he gave instructions to attack in the Norwich game and one must question why he hasn't done that during the previous 10 months. Or, he has tried to play that way all the time, but can't get his message across. I'm not sure which alternative is worse. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 3 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said: The answer to both questions is simply how the team was set up and how we played. Against Reading (and in almost every previous game under Bruce) we have sat back defending, whereas in the Norwich game, after the preassure against Bruce in the media etc, we didn't sit back like before, but continously attacked, attacked in numbers and created many chances. This must surly be because Bruce gave the team instructions to play more adventurous and take more risks going forward. It's quite interesting if this wasn't the case and it wasn't because of Bruce's instructions. If Bruce didn't give the team any particular instructions to attack in the Norwich game and he during his 10 months here actually have intended to play like that all the time and has instructed the players to do so, but they consistently have put in the dire defensive performances we have seen, then Bruce must be kicked out immediatly as he obviously cant get his ideas across to the players. So either way you look at it, Bruce doesn't come out in good light. Either he gave instructions to attack in the Norwich game and one must question why he hasn't done that during the previous 10 months. Or, he has tried to play that way all the time, but can't get his message across. I'm not sure which alternative is worse. Haha....... heads you lose tails you lose. whatever Steve Bruce does in your world is negative. sorry, not worth responding to. i can see that according to your law.......if we win the next 3 games.....it will be down to the players defying Steve Bruce to win. ******** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) 21 hours ago, TRO said: Sorry mate.....never seen it.....perhaps you can let me know the posts reference and i will have a gander. I am reading peoples posts but in the main, its a gripe about tactics and team selection....over and over again. i have heard fans moan about that since the year dot....its nothing new.The england managers get it too. We would all pick different faces for the match.....and possibly different formations.....but even with formations, they morph during a match. For me the players have to perform.....its largely down to them on match day. The manager can only do so much. If he can't get a tune out of this lot now, then it is down to him for buying them. Tactics and team selection are the problem though so obviously people will complain . Bruce needs to set up his team in a positive frame and to play on the front foot , don't use Hutton or gabby again either . The players cannot perform if they are being shackled - it's far far too negative . this is Aston Villa with a very talented squad - we set up as though we are afraid of everyone . Edited September 8, 2017 by Eastie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted September 8, 2017 Visiting Supporter Share Posted September 8, 2017 21 hours ago, TRO said: Its interesting for me how many of the things aimed at Steve Bruce were aimed at Tim sherwood & RDM .....Remi seemed to get most of the empathy that was flying around and understandably so.....but the same criticism about what happened on the pitch was still there.....lack of goals etc paul Lambert had 3 years and much of the same problems and they were still there during his tenure of poor win ratio. Maybe that was due to those managers being crap? What have they done since leaving Villa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 If we don't get at least 12-14 points from the games in September then I think Bruce will be gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberman Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Thank the lord we'll have something concrete to discuss tomorrow rather than the endless circular meanderings of the last 2 weeks. International breaks are tedious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Bruce coming out with how he has a fully healthy squad for the first time in 10 months. Blud you have had a good enough squad throughout your tenure here. Pretty much know manager has a fully fit squad for more than 2 or 3 games in the championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted September 8, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted September 8, 2017 You would never guess we were on a 3 game run of 2 wins and a draw (scoring 9 goals in the process) looking at this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts