Chilcot Report

[Xann]

"The World is better and safer..."

Cock sucker.

[dAVe80]

So Blair is basically saying he could see into the future, and if it wasn't for him it'd be worse? Erm OK. Keep peddling that line. Ignore the fact that this is about Iraq, and keep talking about 9/11, Syria, and Isis. Reinvent what happened, and come out of it as the hero.

"Yeah you got me, but what if I was right? Didn't think think about that did you? Ah see. You're welcome."

[dAVe80]

[brommy]

Cameron knows that it's only by luck of timing that he or another Conservative PM didn't make exactly the same decisions. 

[HanoiVillan]

4 hours ago, ccfcman said:

Already under way, Cameron whitewashing it. No sense of horror at all the innocent deaths. Frightening how one's political leanings can work so hard to cover up their human nature.

Doubtless Cameron has half an eye on a future Libyan War inquiry. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

I have had the "pleasure" of working with many MPs from all parties. Whilst some are in it for their own gains, most work exceptionally hard and shoulder huge responsibility. They are often in a no-win situations and Iraq was one of those situations. A single WMD against Israel might have lead to a much worse consequences than what actually happened.  We now know it was not going to happen. But that's the benefit of hindsight. 

Whatever your opinion of MPs, in my experience they agonise long and hard about these decisions. Sometimes they get the big decisions wrong. But the vast majority of their decisions are made knowing that the press will ruin them for the few decisions that backfire whilst ignoring the good they do.

[Jon]

11 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

I have had the "pleasure" of working with many MPs from all parties. Whilst some are in it for their own gains, most work exceptionally hard and shoulder huge responsibility. They are often in a no-win situations and Iraq was one of those situations. A single WMD against Israel might have lead to a much worse consequences than what actually happened.  We now know it was not going to happen. But that's the benefit of hindsight. 

Whatever your opinion of MPs, in my experience they agonise long and hard about these decisions. Sometimes they get the big decisions wrong. But the vast majority of their decisions are made knowing that the press will ruin them for the few decisions that backfire whilst ignoring the good they do.

I see you have a bit of time on your hands now Dave.  Or is that you Tony? 

Edited July 6, 2016 by Jon

[Mandy Lifeboats]

3 minutes ago, Jon said:

I see you have a bit of time on your hands now Dave.  Or is that you Tony? 

My legal advisor Cherie has advised me not to answer that question. 

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

My legal advisor Cherie has advised me not to answer that question. 

At least not until she's put her face on.

[villakram]

18 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

I have had the "pleasure" of working with many MPs from all parties. Whilst some are in it for their own gains, most work exceptionally hard and shoulder huge responsibility. They are often in a no-win situations and Iraq was one of those situations. A single WMD against Israel might have lead to a much worse consequences than what actually happened.  We now know it was not going to happen. But that's the benefit of hindsight. 

Whatever your opinion of MPs, in my experience they agonise long and hard about these decisions. Sometimes they get the big decisions wrong. But the vast majority of their decisions are made knowing that the press will ruin them for the few decisions that backfire whilst ignoring the good they do.

There were no WMDs and this was very well known at the time... you shameful apologist.

War criminals the lot of them.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

10 minutes ago, villakram said:

There were no WMDs and this was very well known at the time... you shameful apologist.

War criminals the lot of them.

That's an interesting standpoint and not one that's shared in the report. It states that the existence of WMD was exaggerated and based upon intelligence sources that were given more credibility than they turned out to  deserve. 

Please don't insult me personally by calling me a "shameful apologist".  

Firstly, I have not apologised for anything.  I thought his decision to invade was wrong at the time. I also think it's wrong in hindsight.  

Secondly, I feel no shame in presenting a balanced argument.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

29 minutes ago, villakram said:

There were no WMDs and this was very well known at the time... you shameful apologist.

War criminals the lot of them.

It most definitely wasn't "very well known at the time". 5 independent reports have all suggested that intelligence stating Saddam's possession of, or intention to build WMD is verifiable. 

Tony Blair is a liar, an aggressor and above all he is deluded. He is not, however, a war criminal nor a terrorist. Throwing that term around willy-nilly dilutes it's meaning.

[sharkyvilla]

It seems that Bush was hellbent on invading either way, and Blair did seem to at least exert some influence to delay it until some sort of legal case could be made.  He then seemed to spin or just outright lie to overstate the case thereafter to parliament, probably in the genuine belief that Saddam was more dangerous than it turns out he actually was.  It's been costly in ways we can never have imagined and whilst he falls short of being a war criminal, it must go down as the biggest cock up of the 21st century (so far).

[turnbull]

I hate Tony Blair more than I ever hated Thatcher and that's saying something.

[HanoiVillan]

Daniel Larison with a useful general reminder:

'A few additional things should be said about the Iraq war. I have said them before, but they need to be repeated frequently so that they aren’t forgotten. Even if Iraq had retained its unconventional weapons programs as Bush and Blair claimed, attacking Iraq would not have been justified. Even if the “threat” they identified had existed, it would not have justified the invasion and occupation of another country, the overthrow of its government, and the ensuing years of devastation and bloodshed. As it happened, the pretext for the war was a lie, and the threat was non-existent, but the Iraq war would still have been a colossal blunder and enormous crime regardless.'

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/remembering-some-obvious-truths-about-the-iraq-war/

[dont_do_it_doug.]

To play devil's advocate, is Larison basically saying that military intervention can never be justified? 

I do believe Saddam Hussein had to be removed from power. WMD or not. I think they completely botched the execution (no pun intended), we had absolutely no right to enter Iraq without full backing of the UN and I certainly don't believe Blair's bullshit about how it was "now or never", but the end goal was justifiable, IMO. 

The SECOND Saddam had the chance he would have gone full on homicidal maniac. He is one of the vilest despots the world has ever seen and even now I believe Iraq, and the world, are better off with him dead. 

Edited July 6, 2016 by dont_do_it_doug.

[HanoiVillan]

He's saying that preventive war can never be justified, yes. That's my position too. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

6 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

He's saying that preventive war can never be justified, yes. That's my position too. 

Ah okay. It doesn't read like that, that's all. I tend to agree with you. What I'm not sure of and never have been sure of is whether removal of Saddam by other means was viable. 

I'm interested to hear the alternatives. 

P.S. just so we are clear, I hope Tony Blair stubs his toe. Really **** hard. 

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I do believe Saddam Hussein had to be removed from power. WMD or not.

Why do you believe this?*

In believing this, do you think that the best people to be removing him from power were the same countries' governments that were quite happy to be dealing with him previously?

*This may have been answered later in the same post, in which case it makes my second question even more pertinent.

[maqroll]

The British body politic pathetically acquiesced to the Bush propaganda. The Americans were the only collaborators of the fabricated WMD report. Why Blair and Labour didn't show some spine and tell them to **** off, I'll never know. Blair's public groveling was cringetastic. He should be prosecuted for excessive bum kissing , let alone war crimes. 

Some African military commander or politician was recently given a prison sentence by The Hague. If you are fortunate enough to be a Westerner, you can get away with murder. And that includes all the blue blooded Latin American despots over the years who always get away with the crime.

Edited July 7, 2016 by maqroll