The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[HanoiVillan]

5 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Why does Labour's official website say they are a Brexit party?

 

Let's try a more complicated question instead: why haven't we left the EU, more than two years after submitting article 50, when 85% of MP's belong to 'Brexit parties'?

[chrisp65]

Just now, HanoiVillan said:

Let's try a more complicated question instead: why haven't we left the EU, more than two years after submitting article 50, when 85% of MP's belong to 'Brexit parties'?

I'd prefer my simple question.

Why are Labour stating they are a pro Brexit party.

 

[peterms]

9 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Let's try a more complicated question instead: why haven't we left the EU, more than two years after submitting article 50, when 85% of MP's belong to 'Brexit parties'?

I  know!  I know!

It's because they are not Brexit parties, isn't it?

And attempts to label them as such are just shallow name calling, to make a short-lived point, at the expense of accuracy.

Edited May 10, 2019 by peterms
typos

[peterms]

Just now, peterms said:

I  know!  I know!

It's because they are not Brexit parties, isn't it?

And attempts to label them as such are just shallow name calling, to make a shortlived point, at the expense of accuracy.

 

[HanoiVillan]

11 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I'd prefer my simple question.

Why are Labour stating they are a pro Brexit party.

 

Aw, no fun!

The answer is 'because they have a Brexit policy'. That policy is probably on the website that you're seemingly very familiar with. It differs in certain ways from the Conservative Brexit policy, which fact is quite important to the answer to my question. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by HanoiVillan

[chrisp65]

all from labour's own website:

Quote

Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU.

Quote

Labour’s priority is to get the best Brexit deal 

Quote

During the transition period, Labour would seek to remain in a customs union 

Quote

We will end Theresa May’s reckless approach to Brexit, and seek to unite the country around a Brexit deal that works

Quote

Labour will seek a Brexit deal that delivers for all regions and nations of the UK.

 

There's loads of it on there, quote after quote on Labour.org so they are either playing the stupidest of self defeating word games, or they are just flat out lying, or they are utterly incompetent, or they've been hacked.

Or, they might actually be a leave party, like they say they are, in print on their own website.

i mean, they could have a Brexit policy that was to stop Brexit. Perhaps that hasn't occurred to them?

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

all from labour's own website:

 

There's loads of it on there, quote after quote on Labour.org so they are either playing the stupidest of self defeating word games, or they are just flat out lying, or they are utterly incompetent, or they've been hacked.

Or, they might actually be a leave party, like they say they are, in print on their own website.

i mean, they could have a Brexit policy that was to stop Brexit. Perhaps that hasn't occurred to them?

There's a difference between being 'a Brexit party' and 'an any Brexit party'. Labour favour a Brexit, which is theirs. It isn't currently possible, for obvious reasons. They are not going to vote for just any Brexit; if they were, then we would have already left, because they would have voted for May's WA months ago. Whether you think Labour's alternative plan is good or not, or realistic or not, it doesn't affect my point: it isn't the same as the Conservative Brexit on offer, and that's why we are where we are. For as long as Labour refuse to support the government's policy, and are joined by sufficient Tory backbenchers who de facto prefer Remain to leaving under her deal, then remaining is what we will continue to do, by default. 

We can even go further, and observe that Labour is in fact fairly divided over Brexit. If a second referendum were held, pitting any Tory Brexit against Remain, then a clear majority of Labour's MP's would campaign for Remain. Since a second referendum is the main target of the remain movement, and since a Tory government is the one we currently have, this is presumably the eventual goal of most remainers. 

In the end, the actual process of remaining would necessarily involve revoking article 50. That can only be done by the head of government. A serious question for remainers; who do you think is going to actually do that? The three candidates for doing so in the foreseeable future are Theresa May, her successor, or Jeremy Corbyn. One party will have to stop being 'a Brexit party', in this taxonomy, or remainers will never get what they want. I know which of those three people I think is most likely to be the one to sign the document rescinding article 50; other opinions are available. 

[chrisp65]

So, you're saying they are a Brexit party, that might also be a remain party and we'll find out after we've voted for them which it is to be?

Well that's cleared that up.

I'm gonna have a quick dance to the Communards on BBC 4 TOTP then it's bed.

 

 

 

[LondonLax]

Vote Greens. 

The big two are only the big two because people keep voting for them. 

If people still think they need to vote tactically for the big two even in a proportional representation vote for EU parliament, during a climate emergency, when the big two are advocating Brexit people will never vote for change. 

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

So, you're saying they are a Brexit party, that might also be a remain party and we'll find out after we've voted for them which it is to be?

Well that's cleared that up.

I'm gonna have a quick dance to the Communards on BBC 4 TOTP then it's bed.

 

 

 

Don’t leave me this way 

[blandy]

8 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

For people who believe in 'remain and reform', a vote for Labour is best ...

... We could leave, and other countries could change it, in a way that we would have benefitted from had we remained a member. 

This isn’t a strong argument.

[blandy]

8 hours ago, peterms said:

Labour is a party that is divided on Brexit, among voters, members, and elected representatives,  as you well know.

It is, yes. It’s stated policy (which most of its members, MPs and voters strongly dislike and oppose, however Catweazle and Seamus and Len...) is to Leave the EU. It is currently helping the tories with their leave problem, to get a leave deal through parliament, so the UK can leave, so that any MEPs elected will not have to take their seats in the EU parliament.

To me, therefore they don’t at all fit Hanoi’s description of being the best party to vote for if you believe in remain and reform. Better options would be parties that actually want to, y’know...remain and reform.

[snowychap]

9 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Loudly proclaiming that 'Labour are leave', and saying that Labour voters are voting for Brexit, seems unlikely to be a very successful message in the wake of the poll, since 'leave' if it is so defined could finish with 65-70% of the vote

Other than the actual relevance of if UK MEPs take their seats in the EU Parliament (as you've explained in an earlier post), surely people shouldn't be reading so much in to the potential outcome of what is usually an election that the UK population doesn't engage in. I mean, is it likely that the turnout for these elections is suddenly going to suggest that they are relevant?

 

[chrisp65]

The EU elections are nothing but a snapshot opinion poll on Brexit.

You can vote for Remain parties: Green / Lib / SNP / Plaid / Plus ca Change

You can vote for Leave parties: UKIP / Mr Brexit / Cons

and it appears from this thread recently you can now vote Lucky Dip: Labour

 

The absolute luck of one of the worst governments ever, to be facing one of the worst oppositions ever.

[snowychap]

14 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

The EU elections are nothing but a snapshot opinion poll on Brexit.

Viewing them as that is a mistake.

[peterms]

9 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

So, you're saying they are a Brexit party, that might also be a remain party and we'll find out after we've voted for them which it is to be?

 

2 hours ago, blandy said:

It’s stated policy (which most of its members, MPs and voters strongly dislike and oppose, however Catweazle and Seamus and Len...) is to Leave the EU.

Its policy before the referendum was to remain, which some members thought was misguided.  It then said that it would accept the outcome of the referendum.  It now has a policy of looking to implement leaving the EU in a way that best serves other policy priorities such as workers' rights, close trading links with the EU, maintaining a strong regulatory framework and so on, but rejecting a way of leaving that doesn't, such as no deal. 

Whether you like that policy stance or not, it seems to me a mistake to seek to characterise it as either a "leave" or "remain" party, and grumble if it doesn't behave accordingly.  To be a leave or remain party, you would need to see leaving or remaining as pretty much an end in itself, a policy priority taking precedence over others, not a possible means to an end.  Some Labour members and voters do see EU membership that way, but the party position is that EU membership or not is a possible route, not a destination to be desired in its own right.  I can see why people might wish it was either unconditionally for or against, but I don't see why they appear to think that only such a stance is valid.

For what it's worth, my view is that we will end up staying in the EU, and the Labour Party will have a material part to play in doing so.  In that event, we will be told that it's a betrayal, a massive U-turn, and so on.  Again, those criticisms will be misplaced, because they mistake a policy end for a possible means.

[HanoiVillan]

3 hours ago, blandy said:

This isn’t a strong argument.

I'm very confused as to what you are disagreeing with here.

 

[HanoiVillan]

11 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

[Labour] might actually be a leave party, like they say they are, in print on their own website.

 

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

The EU elections are nothing but a snapshot opinion poll on Brexit.

The logical endpoint of this argument, again, is going to be that when two-thirds of the electorate vote for 'Brexit parties' in the elections, it will represent an overwhelming mandate to leave the EU. You're making exactly the argument that Nigel Farage is going to be making in two weeks' time. 

[bickster]

27 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

 

The logical endpoint of this argument, again, is going to be that when two-thirds of the electorate vote for 'Brexit parties' in the elections, it will represent an overwhelming mandate to leave the EU. You're making exactly the argument that Nigel Farage is going to be making in two weeks' time. 

This is true. Also true is that a vote for Labour is a vote for a Brexit supporting party, so anyone voting Labour is supporting Brexit no matter what the endpoint of an argument is

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

 

The logical endpoint of this argument, again, is going to be that when two-thirds of the electorate vote for 'Brexit parties' in the elections, it will represent an overwhelming mandate to leave the EU. 

Yes, that's right. It's because you can only possibly count Labour as a leave party because that is what they declare themselves as. I don't dispute that, it's actually my point. We have a leave party trying to trick remain voters in to voting for them.

2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

 You're making exactly the argument that Nigel Farage is going to be making in two weeks' time. 

Agreed.

But will that be my fault, or Labour's?