snowychap Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 Grauniad: Quote Senior Tory and Labour politicians have issued frantic calls to their voters to back them in next week’s European elections after a new poll showed support for Nigel Farage’s Brexit party had soared to a level higher than for the two main parties put together. ... The poll suggests the Brexit party, launched only last month, is now on course for a thumping victory that Farage will, MPs fear, use to back his argument that the UK must leave the EU immediately without a deal. ... There were signs of mounting panic and recriminations in both Tory and Labour ranks as their MPs attempted belatedly to mount “stop Farage” operations. May was accused by senior Conservatives of “fuelling populism” with her indecision over the Brexit issue, while Labour politicians urged their backers to come out and vote despite the party’s mixed messages on Europe, which are depressing its support. Richard Corbett, Labour’s leader in the European parliament, said: “Labour voters must turn out and vote to stop a far-right extremist claiming he represents Britain.” Writing for the Observer online, the former prime minister Tony Blair says it is vital that Labour supporters go to the polls, even if they choose a party more clearly in favour of Remain than Labour. “This is not a vote to choose a prime minister or a government,” Blair says. “It is a vote for the Farage Brexit; or against it.” He adds: “I will vote Labour because I believe ultimately Labour will be counted on the anti-Farage side of the ledger. The bulk of the Labour party membership, MPs and voters are against Brexit and certainly against that Brexit advocated by the Brexit party and its fellow travellers in the Conservative party.” ... A series of Conservative moderates demanded that the party take on Farage directly, rather than give him a free run in the campaign. The former education secretary Nicky Morgan said it was time to tackle the “politics of division” head on. “It is a dangerous path for any democracy and we know where it ends – a deeply fragmented and weakened country. Those of us who can see the dangers must call this kind of politics out at every opportunity we get.” ... Sam Gyimah, the former universities minister, said: “Harnessing grievance is Farage’s only card, but we know he’s never had a solid plan for our great country. We have vacated the pitch, and voters are flocking to him. Time to call him out.” ... more on link Here's an idea: don't play Farage's game. Don't run stories suggesting that getting 34% of the vote in the European elections (even if the turnout is a reasonable one rather than the UK average of under 40%) would give one man the right to make claim such as 'the UK must leave the EU immediately without a deal.' Politicians, don't just 'call out' the politics of division, call out the stupid notion that even if the polls are correct that this would allow Farage to claim to represents Britain. It is NOT a vote for, or against, the 'Farage Brexit' (whatever that really is as it didn't appear to spelt out on the leaflet I had posted through my door - courtesy of some bod called Toby Vincent who claims to have funded it himself). As much as Farage will be responsible for this mistaken narrative, so will everyone else who parrots it - even if they are merely doing it to try and get their own vote up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted May 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 12, 2019 This shit show will not be the fault of parrots. If the tory leadership under Cameron had been leaders this would not have happened. If the tory leadership of May had actually had a clue how to run a party or how to convey messages or seek consensus or 'lead' then this would not have happened. If the Labour leadership had seen this as a genuine and important issue and not a chance to get a Labour government via tory ineptitude, then this could have been avoided. The Conservative Party and to a slightly lesser extent The Labour Party have caused this. They have attempted to manipulate the situation for party preservation or for party gain. What they've actually done is proven themselves, over what is now years, to be deceitful, divided, double talking and incompetent. There's a very real chance here that the tories are going to lose Scotland from the Union. Once that happens, we will have a form of right wing government in perpetuity. This is a massively dangerous time and the two leaders of the two main parties are thinking one thing. How can I best protect my own party's arse? 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: This shit show will not be the fault of parrots. They absolutely have to take their share of the blame. Absolving them of any is myopic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 12, 2019 Moderator Share Posted May 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, snowychap said: They absolutely have to take their share of the blame. Absolving them of any is myopic. I took that point to mean in their own eyes and not the eyes of everyone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: The Conservative Party and to a slightly lesser extent The Labour Party have caused this. They, on their own, haven't. They, the media, Farage continually sniping at the sidelines (he never went away), the Banks/Wigmore lot, the great disappearing Cummings, Campbell, Blair, Cameron, Adonis, Osborne, the Treasury, &c. have all caused this. But the electorate have caused it, too. The electorate really ought to take more responsibility for the choices (often without proper thought or grounds) that it makes. Edited May 12, 2019 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 48 minutes ago, snowychap said: They, on their own, haven't. They, the media, Farage continually sniping at the sidelines (he never went away), the Banks/Wigmore lot, the great disappearing Cummings, Campbell, Blair, Cameron, Adonis, Osborne, the Treasury, &c. have all caused this. But the electorate have caused it, too. The electorate really ought to take more responsibility for the choices (often without proper thought or grounds) that it makes. But they have. Years of letting people lie about immigration and bendy bananas and all that. They were lazy enough to just let it go unchallenged that we were giving benefits to EU economic migrants. They were complicit in saying (or not correcting) every anti EU trope going. We never had any leadership or education from Government of either colour. Neither government took Bargoed or Boston seriously. We let them rot and used them as dumping grounds. What token money did go in to those areas arrived in the form of 'community arts projects' sponsored by Brussels. If I don't have a job, I'm not going to be swayed by knitted lamp post covers. As for the electorate, it's been known for literally thousands of years that referenda are a bad idea and they bring out the ignorance of the electorate on topics. Ignorance often due to the years of being fed bullshit by those very same governments. Cameron went to posh school, did they not do Greek democracy? Did he not know that he was lining himself up for a stupid defeat? You absolutely cannot blame the people for this. Successive poor governments brought us here. Our people are no better or worse at decision making than the people of Ireland or Germany or Denmark. Except they've been given a different experience of what it is to be european by their political class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: But they have. Years of letting people lie about immigration and bendy bananas and all that. They were lazy enough to just let it go unchallenged that we were giving benefits to EU economic migrants. They were complicit in saying (or not correcting) every anti EU trope going. We never had any leadership or education from Government of either colour. It's not simply up to politicians or Government to educate. People can educate themselves. And when people are 'educated' as to something then they can try and **** well listen rather than writing it off as crap emanating from Ivory towers. It isn't just politicians who have said let's ignore people who actually know what they're talking about. People have, too. Why? Because it's much easier to be driven by 'what you feel', 'perception' and what 'stands to reason' than actually look at the detail of something and consider it. It's that attitude that has us precisely in this mess. It's not necessarily that people voted for Brexit that has us here but it's that people voted for Brexit (just) without anyone really planning for what to do in after the vote. It's piss easy to merely blame the people at the top of the political tree (and boy do they deserve their blame) but all of us below should shoulder a fair amount of it, too. If we want the world to change, in a direction that we want, then to wait for politicians to do it is not only utterly lame but it's stupidly, self-defeating because it just won't happen. 17 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: As for the electorate, it's been known for literally thousands of years that referenda are a bad idea and they bring out the ignorance of the electorate on topics. I'm not just talking about referendums, or in this case one referendum, here. I'm talking all elections. A significant majority of people vote without really understanding the nature of the political system in which they are participating. They vote because they've heard a soundbite and not because they've read a manifesto (even allowing for the fact that they're obviously not a guarantee of what someone will do in government). They stick an 'x' in the box because someone has been gobbing off and they think that 'this will stick it to 'em' not really understanding that they're not sticking it to anyone other than themselves when they're voting for one of 'em who just pretends or claims not to be one of 'em. 25 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: You absolutely cannot blame the people for this. You can, you should and you must include them in with the rest. Not doing so isn't just a cop out, it's missing an absolutely fundamental part of the problem and doing that gives no one any chance of ever properly addressing it. 26 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Except they've been given a different experience of what it is to be european by their political class. I know this is the EU/Brexit topic but the issue is not confined to this one area of politics, it is in every sinew of the political body (and that body necessarily includes the demos). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 A lot of that argument is down to education. If only there was some way the government could influence the education system in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted May 12, 2019 Administrator Share Posted May 12, 2019 29 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: A lot of that argument is down to education. If only there was some way the government could influence the education system in this country. As if the untaxed churches running the schools have any interest in allowing that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 Just now, limpid said: As if the untaxed churches running the schools have any interest in allowing that. ? I may have mentioned this before, when you guys go on about schools being run by 'the church' I'm guessing I must have grown up in a secular bubble. Which might be why I'm more relaxed about other people's faith in their own atheism or religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: A lot of that argument is down to education. Very little of it is. You want to make it about that so that you can blame the government for everything. If you're really fine with that and that's what you've convinced yourself then have at it. It's largely bollocks though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 12, 2019 Moderator Share Posted May 12, 2019 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: ? I may have mentioned this before, when you guys go on about schools being run by 'the church' I'm guessing I must have grown up in a secular bubble. Which might be why I'm more relaxed about other people's faith in their own atheism or religion. You want an idea of what we're talking about look at this list on Wiki Quote State-funded schools[edit] Primary schools[edit] All Saints' Catholic Voluntary Aided Primary School Anfield Infant School Anfield Junior School Arnot St Mary CofE Primary School Banks Road Primary School Barlows Primary School The Beacon C of E Primary School Beaufort Park Primary School Belle Vale C.P. School Bishop Martin C of E Primary School Blackmoor Park Junior School Blackmoor Park Infants' School Blessed Sacrament Roman Catholic Infant School Blessed Sacrament Roman Catholic Junior School Lots more on the list... Even some of the less religious sounding schools are religious schools 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 (edited) 45 minutes ago, bickster said: You want an idea of what we're talking about look at this list on Wiki Even some of the less religious sounding schools are religious schools I'm out of my depth here, you're describing a system I'm utterly unfamiliar with, that appears to have left a significant portion of VT with strong views, so it's just not my field to get too involved in. I'm just proposing that an education system that was based on critical thinking and quality of reference material, that then taught history beyond a list of Kings and WWII battles, that gave some sense of economics and community. Well, that might be a starting point from which the Farage snake oil machine would struggle to get a decent grip. If you're saying the vast majority of schooling is just a shadowy CofE madrasa, I'll have to accept that's how it is. Edited May 12, 2019 by chrisp65 read more arsey than intended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 12, 2019 Moderator Share Posted May 12, 2019 44 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: If you're saying the vast majority of schooling is just a shadowy CofE madrasa, I'll have to accept that's how it is. And Catholic, even a few Jewish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 I had no idea I grew up in such a secular utopia. Yes, once I got to comp there was the worship of the egg, other than that, nothing. But even with the egg they'd left that too late, when a lad already played right back for Barry Island Marine FC. They later added an 'A' and became AFC. They were kidding nobody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 12, 2019 Moderator Share Posted May 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I had no idea I grew up in such a secular utopia. Yes, once I got to comp there was the worship of the egg, other than that, nothing. But even with the egg they'd left that too late, when a lad already played right back for Barry Island Marine FC. They later added an 'A' and became AFC. They were kidding nobody. It's got far worse since you and I went to skool. Underfunding by the government for generations leads to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted May 12, 2019 Administrator Share Posted May 12, 2019 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: I'm just proposing that an education system that was based on critical thinking and quality of reference material You've nailed the problem right there.... Religious schools are actively opposed to critical thinking and put their favoured fiction above all reference material. Obviously they all do this to different degrees, but at the end of the day, it's all about teaching people to accept things from authority. Keep the electorate pliable and easily led. I'm glad you avoided this at school. So did I. It's a real thing though. It's the main reason I'm a member of the NSS and BHA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 Well, again, this is over my head. I know it's one of the few areas of variation / devolution where you guys have a different system. I'm in a town of about 50,000 souls. We have the same schools now as when I was a kid, plus a couple of extras for the population growth. They're as state secular now as they were back in the 70's. I can't think of a single instance of my kids having religious education beyond a carol service and a trip to a Gudwara for sweets. You'll forgive me if I'm a bit sceptical about england's yoot being turned in to a C of E sleeper cell. Or, I'm so utterly brainwashed here on Summerisle, I can't see it. I think we've strayed OT. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 I went to C of E school. The only interference I recall was morning assembly. As it wasn't Catholic the interference was merely Bible readings. This was in the 70s.it was a different time then. Apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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