The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[bickster]

20 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Why would it?

Because there's a border which currently doesn't exist and everything will need to be checked (and the EU will)

[ml1dch]

14 minutes ago, bickster said:

Because there's a border which currently doesn't exist and everything will need to be checked (and the EU will)

Of course they will. Britain's export trade will be decimated overnight.

But if the Government decides that it wants make say, Ramsgate an import-only port, and waive all checks on lorries arriving from Ostend, there's no reason that huge queues will build up on the Belgian side, as there's nothing coming over from the British side in the first place to create those queues.

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by ml1dch

[Genie]

The longer it goes on I can’t help but think a deal will be struck. Even a bad deal is better than a no deal.

[bickster]

Just now, ml1dch said:

Of course they will. Britain's export trade will be decimated overnight.

But if the Government decides that it wants make say, Ramsgate an import-only port, and waive all checks on lorries arriving from Ostend, there's no reason that there will huge queues will build up there, as there's nothing coming over from the British side in the first place to create those queues.

 

Yes but the EU will still check goods leaving, not only that but Irish Trucks will be given preferential treatment at the French Border, an agreement has already been signed to this effect

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, Genie said:

The longer it goes on I can’t help but think a deal will be struck. Even a bad deal is better than a no deal.

That's what May wants you to think,

[bickster]

59 minutes ago, Genie said:

Are we still offering much better benefits packages than the rest of the Europe? I’d have thought from a immigrants point of view fleeing a war zone France, Spain, Germany or Italy would all be perfectly fine places to settle.

I would have thought that if the incentive wasn’t there then people wouldn’t risk their lives getting across the channel from the mainland. Can’t we just as a minimum align with Europe for non-British nations (or is that racist?).

I don’t know enough about how we compare in the UK to the rest of Europe to understand why it’s worth risking a horrible death for.

I'm sorry Genie mate but you seem to be swallowing the Tory Party narrative on everything

The current "Immigrant Crisis" is because just over 200 people have tried to cross the English Channel since November, that takes the total for the entire year to something just over 300

Compare that to how many have tried to cross the Mediterranean this year, a very low figure as it happens for Med Crossings in recent years which is over 100,000, its been over 1 million a few years ago.

Our "Crisis" is manufactured to stoke the fires of the people who don't like Brown people, this time to attempt to get them to like a particular brown person

[tonyh29]

27 minutes ago, bickster said:

Yes but the EU will still check goods leaving, not only that but Irish Trucks will be given preferential treatment at the French Border, an agreement has already been signed to this effect

And All they have to do is get the Irish lorries full of a British goods

 

I read an article on Flipboard ( that I can’t verify ) that French customs have said they will inspect 1 in every 100 (u.k )trucks coming from U.K. ports in the event of no deal ... I suspect the French draft bill would be the ideal place to verify but typical French being awkward they’ve gone and written it in French so I can’t read it

 

[bickster]

Just now, tonyh29 said:

And All they have to do is get the Irish lorries full of a British goods

 

I read an article on Flipboard ( that I can’t verify ) that French customs have said they will inspect 1 in every 100 (u.k )trucks coming from U.K. ports in the event of no deal ... I suspect the French draft bill would be the ideal place to verify but typical French being awkward they’ve gone and written it in French so I can’t read it

 

You know the Irish Government have also rented ferries to sail from mainline Europe directly to Ireland to cut out the UK land-based part of the normal journey? So the Irish bound trucks won't be coming here

[Genie]

8 minutes ago, bickster said:

I'm sorry Genie mate but you seem to be swallowing the Tory Party narrative on everything

The current "Immigrant Crisis" is because just over 200 people have tried to cross the English Channel since November, that takes the total for the entire year to something just over 300

Compare that to how many have tried to cross the Mediterranean this year, a very low figure as it happens for Med Crossings in recent years which is over 100,000, its been over 1 million a few years ago.

Our "Crisis" is manufactured to stoke the fires of the people who don't like Brown people, this time to attempt to get them to like a particular brown person

I think my genuine question is valid, what makes the UK worth risking a life for rather than staying in France, Germany etc? I genuinely don’t know.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Genie

[bickster]

15 minutes ago, Genie said:

I think my genuine question is valid, what makes the UK worth risking a life for rather than staying in France, Germany etc? I genuinely don’t know.

You don't honestly believe the refugees are the cleverest people in the world and have access to all the information they need to make a valued judgement do you?

They've just been told Britain is the best place to head  99.8% of them learn otherwise en route 

[tonyh29]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

You know the Irish Government have also rented ferries to sail from mainline Europe directly to Ireland to cut out the UK land-based part of the normal journey? So the Irish bound trucks won't be coming here

Interesting as no more than a few hours ago on the news the Irish government were being accused of  “ standing idly by “ in regards to extra ferry capacity 

also to go back to your initial point there was news from The EU commission some time back that French ports were being excluded from new routes focusing on connecting Dublin and Cork with the Belgian ports of Zeebrugge and Antwerp so there won’t be any influx of Irish lorries taking priority in France

 

 

 

[OutByEaster?]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

Are we still offering much better benefits packages than the rest of the Europe? I’d have thought from a immigrants point of view fleeing a war zone France, Spain, Germany or Italy would all be perfectly fine places to settle.

I would have thought that if the incentive wasn’t there then people wouldn’t risk their lives getting across the channel from the mainland. Can’t we just as a minimum align with Europe for non-British nations (or is that racist?).

I don’t know enough about how we compare in the UK to the rest of Europe to understand why it’s worth risking a horrible death for.

What would be great is if we were to take the things that make us attractive and encourage the rest of Europe to fall into line. The NHS is a big one for that, publicly funded healthcare - wouldn't it be wonderful if we were trying to influence the EU from its heart to put that in place across the whole region? 

Of course we won't, because we're run by a government that hates public services and sees the NHS as an idealogical aberration. Even if it cared, it'd be trying to influence an EU that's fought a similar idealogical battle internally and largely lost it. Sadly, we're not trying to get out of the EU because their lower standards make us more attractive, we're getting out because independence from their bureaucracy and fringe socialist influence allows us to lower ours more quickly.

 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

I think my genuine question is valid, what makes the UK worth risking a life for rather than staying in France, Germany etc? I genuinely don’t know.

There's quite a lot of complexity for what is being treated by the Gov't and media as a black and white thing.

There's 100s of thousands of refugee/migrants come to Europe from Syria, Iraq etc. The vast vast majority have gone to germany, sweden, france, Italy, Greece...etc.

But of all those refugees/migrants, some, a small number will have family and relatives in the UK. People who would likely look after them, give them a roof, a friendly face, a welcome and warmth.

Next, having already trekked across much more dangerous waters and across europe and north africa, how many actually think they are risking their lives being sailed across 20 miles of the channel?

It's easy to say once they get to [wherever they entered Europe] they're safe. so why move on? but people want and need to get away from overcrowded, desperate conditions and try and find somewhere less dangerous/uncomfortable etc.

[Chindie]

I'd probably argue the UK has a draw as a... 'cultural' I guess... icon. We are (correctly) seen as a successful and safe country, where people of many backgrounds can succeed. There's also the draw of English - English is a language that's far more useful than say, German.

Similar to the draw the US has, but to a lesser extent.

[sharkyvilla]

3 hours ago, Genie said:

The longer it goes on I can’t help but think a deal will be struck. Even a bad deal is better than a no deal.

Definitely this.  It'll go down to the wire but the EU do often do that, there will be some sort of concession that'll make it go through parliament.

[bickster]

51 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

Definitely this.  It'll go down to the wire but the EU do often do that, there will be some sort of concession that'll make it go through parliament.

There really will not, they can't give an inch otherwise it sets up every right-wing separatist nut job party in Europe to keep pushing the anti-EU agenda encouraging their member state to leave etc

[ml1dch]

1 hour ago, sharkyvilla said:

Definitely this.  It'll go down to the wire but the EU do often do that, there will be some sort of concession that'll make it go through parliament.

A deal has been struck. It's been agreed by 28 countries and the European Commission. Everyone else is now just waiting for us to walk through the door that we asked to open.

This isn't a "10pm in late March in a smoke-filled room in Berlymont, a deal is finally struck" situation. 

That theatre was December. That's the thing we now have. 

[ml1dch]

5 hours ago, bickster said:

Yes but the EU will still check goods leaving, not only that but Irish Trucks will be given preferential treatment at the French Border, an agreement has already been signed to this effect

I'm clearly being dim, so please indulge me.

So a UK Government commissioned lorry, approaches the quayside at Ostend to board a UK Government commissioned ferry returning to the recently dredged port of Ramsgate, laden with lettuces and peppers from the Dutch lowlands for the starving citizens of Brexit Britain.

What is le Monsieur/ de heer at the office stopping that lorry to check for?  Tariffs due aren't his problem. Quality control of the contents isn't his problem. 

Other way, sure. Check everything right down to the wooden pallets and the driver's sandwiches. I just don't see what's causing the queues with goods going this way.

I don't see myself as a head-in-the-sand type on this issue - I was saying all this would be the case fifteen months ago. 

I just don't see it in this particular scenario, 

[snowychap]

More on the Seabourne stuff - read the thread:

 

[snowychap]

2018 highs and lows: A dead Guatemalan girl and what it says about us

Quote

High: The backstop

The backstop is a strange political object. It is simultaneously boring and fascinating. It is intolerable, but also oddly beautiful. Bear with me on this.

The high point of the year - although, this being 2018, it didn't feel that way - came in mid-November when Theresa May confirmed she'd secured a deal with the EU. The reason it was a high point may not have been immediately obvious. For a start, May's deal instantly imploded the Tory party, triggered several resignations and seemed to end all hopes of a managed way through the mess.

The howls of outrage were not illegitimate either. The backstop introduces a disturbing democratic phenomenon in Northern Ireland, where EU rules, as long as they are amended or replaced, are instantly imposed without any democratic representation.

So it's hard to see why it should be the highlight of anyone's year, except for perhaps a few political sadists. But dig a little deeper and it reflects something quite remarkable. It is the secured objective of a union of nations standing up for the smallest in their number.

The EU is a much-maligned institution. It is the subject of despairing commentary across the continent, from left and right. Even among Remainers in the UK, it is hardly universally loved. And indeed it has many faults. It legislates too widely. It is too tedious and complex for average voters to follow, which is a democratic problem in its own right. Jean-Claude Juncker is a particularly terrible Commission head whose behaviour is an embarrassment to europhiles and indeed European citizens in general. But quieten the noise for a moment and notice what was done here.

The Republic of Ireland did not ask for a Brexit referendum. Unlike the UK, its public did not vote for what happened. They were suddenly presented with a situation in which they were going to be torn apart. Their largest export market would pull away but they could not change to accommodate it because they were plugged into European rules. The spectre of border infrastructure, the physical architecture of the Troubles, was rearing its head. The commitment to an instinctively all-Ireland perspective, of walking together into the future, was being ignored.

At any other time in history, that would have been the end of it. The UK is much bigger, richer and more powerful than Ireland. It can boss it around. And it has done so, for hundreds of years, to disastrous effect. But this time it was different.

This time, a union of nations stood by one of its smaller members. It might not have been in their interest. Certainly it's true that the deal would have been much easier to sort if the Irish issue wasn't there. But they did it anyway, by showing commitment to the functional principle of the European project.

The emotional outrage of Brexiters during negotiations has largely stemmed from this fact. They hark back to a world where stronger countries could do what they wanted. Britain could boss Ireland. Only a handful of countries could boss it back. We dressed it up in all sorts of elegant names, and pronounced on it while wearing well-tailored suits from the chambers of parliament, but in reality it was the international law of the jungle - the political Darwinism of international relations. But now there is a new way of doing things, a way which we, ironically, have championed: nations acting together for their mutual advantage.

It's a weird highlight, because the ramifications of the backstop are ugly and no-one really wants it. But in an era when international institutions are being smacked around by authoritarians, and in which no-one will defend a more complex and fair way of doing things, it showed that the EU was going to stick to its principles. If it can make it out of the difficult years ahead in one piece, it'll be because it did so, rather than sacrifice them.

Low: The death of Jakelin Caal Maquin

Jakelin Caal Maquin was seven years old when she died, following a cardiac arrest, in El Paso Texas on Saturday, December 8th. The hardline policy of the United States means that Guatemalan immigrants like her have to find ever-more isolated parts of the border to try and cross. She and her father had made it to Antelope Wells in New Mexico, one of the most remote spots on the US' southern frontier. And she paid for it with her life.

The cruelty around the death began as soon as it was announced. Trump supporters laid the blame at the parent. You start to assume this kind of response now - a sub-human form of emotional opacity - in a way we wouldn't before. Many in the US use the word 'invasion' when talking about migrants, as British far-right figures talk of Muslim 'barbarians' when discussing the Middle East. It is a dehumanisation mechanism directed towards the Other, but which in fact operates upon oneself.

They did not mention the tiny wooden house Maquin lived in, with a straw roof and dirty floors, where she used to sleep with her parents and three siblings. And they did not think about why people make these journeys, in dangerous conditions, to find a better life.

Of course, this is just one death. There are countless others. Indeed, last Monday another Guatemalan child, named Felipe Gómez Alonzo, had died in American custody.

We don't know how many drowned in the sea trying to get to Europe this year. Not really. The authorities have started to close down any rescue service available to them. Earlier this month Medecines Sans Frontier confirmed it had to pull its rescue boat after aggressive Italian bureaucracy had kept it in port for months. Even saving migrants is no longer allowed. In Hungary a law was recently passed criminalising efforts to help people claim asylum. In the US,migrant children are separated from their parents and put in cages. We are becoming something less than we were before.

Across the West, the anti-migrant wave continues. It is there in the US under Trump, in Italy under Salvini, in Hungary under Orban. It is in every country, under different guises, focused on different groups. In the UK, where we pride ourselves on being more moderate in our policy and our discourse, millions of European citizens have lived in uncertainty, facing daily insults from a society which treats them as a problem rather than a friend. We have deported people who have lived here legally for decades. We have locked up countless thousands in detention centres, without trials or access to legal advice. And then, as the year ended, the home secretary stood up in parliament to confirm the end of free movement, arguably the greatest liberal accomplishment of the post-war period. And he did it like it was some kind of victory.

Those are the conditions under which the world's most important political debate currently takes place. The immigrant is the Other. They are the target, picked on and spat at and ultimately killed, while commentators tell us to understand the 'legitimate concerns' of those who despise them.

Next year, we should show less understanding of people's 'legitimate concerns' and more outrage over the victims of anti-immigrant hysteria.

Ian Dunt is editor of Politics.co.uk and the author of Brexit: What The Hell Happens Now?

I have put the last couple of sentences in bold: I think it's a very important message.

Happy **** new year. Let's all be (at least a little) better people.

Edited December 31, 2018 by snowychap