The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[StefanAVFC]

7 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

you've quoted the very same example I gave but what I asked for was some examples of where he lied , as Blandy suggested , as they don't seem to be that easy to find 

Really? Blimey, I never noticed!!

I do know.

I was questioning your interpretation.  You made it out like that isn't Cameron stating it would be enacted immediately.

It's fairly obvious it is. I'll look for others but that is pretty solid in itself.

Edited January 8, 2017 by StefanAVFC

[Neil]

18 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I've no doubt I'll be proven wrong by other posters but you're the first person I think I've ever "met" who has referred to themselves as being a European Citizen .

i know my passport has the EU flag on it but I've never really thought is myself as a citizen of Europe , any more than my visit to Kilburn where I drunk Guinness made me think I was Irish .

i mean you are right , it's just not something I'd ever really thought of and certainly not something I'm going to lose any sleep over once we finally get divorced 

I've never felt like a European citizen, because they all drive on the wrong side of the road...use different power sockets and a different currency to us. lol

There is something very unique about being English that you don't get in Europe, we have very different work ethics and values to most of Europe.  The closest I've ever felt to being a match is bizarrely the Germans, they seem to understand the importance of holding down a good job and paying your taxes at least.

Taking away the European safety net might be good for some people, may push them to explore the vastly beautiful world that exists outside of Europe.  I'm only just getting my parents to see there is life after Spain.

[StefanAVFC]

34 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

i know my passport has the EU flag on it but I've never really thought is myself as a citizen of Europe , any more than my visit to Kilburn where I drunk Guinness made me think I was Irish .

That's a rubbish comparison.

[tonyh29]

33 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Really? Blimey, I never noticed!!

I do know.

I was questioning your interpretation. 

My interpretation where Cameron says that is what we should do ? I should go on a diet it doesn't mean I've promised to go on one 

To answer my own question it appears Cameron said on the 22nd feb

 If the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, namely to trigger article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit, and the British people would rightly expect that to start straight away.”

but even that isn't a promise 

so it's politician speak but im not sure he "lied" as Blandy suggested , maybe I'm just talking semantics same way khan said he would freeze all TfL fares and they went up in his first week in office ... 

 

Edit - You edited your post a little in the meantime but I don't think it changes the discussion , 

Edited January 8, 2017 by tonyh29

[tonyh29]

46 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

That's a rubbish comparison.

Ok , hands up who thought I was being serious with that line 

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by tonyh29

[StefanAVFC]

Islam: On the 28th of June, you will activate article 50?

Cameron: That's what we have to do, yes.

It's very clear in the discussion and your argument that Islam was shouting poor David down so much, he didn't know which question he was answering, is laughable a best.

[tonyh29]

21 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Islam: On the 28th of June, you will activate article 50?

Cameron: That's what we have to do, yes.

It's very clear in the discussion and your argument that Islam was shouting poor David down so much, he didn't know which question he was answering, is laughable a best.

I suppose there is irony in that you criticise my interpretation  then chose to interpret my words of "talking over " as shouting poor David down

Cameron said "should do " the first time and was speaking during which Islam  repeatedly spoke over him  ... it sounded to me that Cameron had said  "if that is what we have to do, yes  " when asked if it will be the 28th June but I'll concede after playing it back a few more times he doesn't appear to have said "if"  but , I don't think he wanted to say that  and had got a bit riled and slipped up ( not quite full code red and Jack Nicholson )  ... he does also say we , not I but that could be stretching an argument a bit too far , however as I  said I can't find anything on google where Cameron seems to clearly stats he will immediately invoke article 50  ,  which is why I think Islam trapped him a wee bit there ( job done ? ) 

Some other promises should be easy to find but surprisingly don't seem to be ?

[HanoiVillan]

@blandy posted an extract from Hansard demonstrating this earlier. 

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

15 hours ago, blandy said:

Because, I suspect, of the 2 years thing. There are essentially 3 phases.

1. Vote leave wins

2. PM Instigates A50

3. End of 2 year A50 negotiations.

So while Cameron lied about triggering A50 straight away, and various predictions based on a A50 being started right from the vote are kind of null and void, based on it not happening yet, parts of their forecasts will also have been based on the outlook over the 2 years of negotiations, and then the following period.

They've recognised that a number of their assumptions were a bit awry (and the article says which ones), that they didn't recognise that for example the BoE would also share their views and actually take action to prevent damage, which it was able to do, in part because of the delay in A50.

I suppose in order to revise their predictions, they first have to lay the ground to say "this is why we need to revise them, this is what's different, this is where we got stuff wrong..." but not go all political about it, saying "the Gov't (of the time) lied to everyone.

There's a bunch of stuff happened in the gap between vote result and A50 which simply wasn't included in the predictions. It's only short term and may well be cancelled out (or not) in due course.

That's my guess.

On the bolded bit: they don't have to get overly political, or say they've been lied to, they just need to say their initial forecasts were based on a belief the government would immediately trigger A50. 

I work for a large investment bank and can tell you that research analysts live and die by the papers they produce; if they've got an easy out to explain why they were wrong, they'll take it. I know this because I get sent research and then subsequent revisions all the time. 

They're trying to save face - "Erm, okay, we got it wrong, but we also know why - so here's why - and this is what we think will happen now". If any assumption that A50 was to be triggered immediately was applied they'd say so. Most definitely.

I've just been re-reading over some papers our analysts produced prior to the vote (these are the full papers and not just a summary/overview as in the BI article). None of those I've looked back over specifically assume an immediate triggering. One of them, for example, assumed that, whilst triggering will take place we'd still be part of the EU in H2 2016 to 2017. So I don't believe that the MS analysts definitely included the assumption of an immediate triggering of A50 in their own research.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Morley_crosses_to_Withe

[chrisp65]

9 hours ago, Neil said:

There is something very unique about being English that you don't get in Europe, we have very different work ethics and values to most of Europe.  The closest I've ever felt to being a match is bizarrely the Germans, they seem to understand the importance of holding down a good job and paying your taxes at least.

I'm just curious as to whether this was just casual trolling or genuine ignorance?

How would you imagine the hours worked or productivity per hour in England compares with Italy. Do Italians or English work longer hours? Do Italians or English produce more during each hour? 

I'm guessing you either have comprehensive personal experience and anecdotes, or you can add links and references. Otherwise it just looks a bit 'I'm not racist but...'

Finally, the thing that triggered me? 'very unique' 

 

[tonyh29]

17 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I'm just curious as to whether this was just casual trolling or genuine ignorance?

How would you imagine the hours worked or productivity per hour in England compares with Italy. Do Italians or English work longer hours? Do Italians or English produce more during each hour? 

        

i thought he was being tongue in cheek in line with my post ? 

To answer your question England work longer hours than Italy and are more productive according to the interweb page I looked at

so it doesn't appear to be ignorance or trolling , though tbh you may have just picked the wrong country to use as your example 

[chrisp65]

40 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

        

i thought he was being tongue in cheek in line with my post ? 

To answer your question England work longer hours than Italy and are more productive according to the interweb page I looked at

so it doesn't appear to be ignorance or trolling , though tbh you may have just picked the wrong country to use as your example 

Be nice to see the link?

 

 

[tonyh29]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Be nice to see the link?

First one on google

 

Looking at full-time jobs alone, workers in the UK are chained to their desks (or more likely stuck on a building site, since the occupation with the longest hours is crane driver), for a miserable 42.7 hours a week

shows productivity as well which was handy seeing as you asked 

interestingly the same google search reveals a link to the TUC website in 2014  that says uk workers work the most in Europe but I'm sure they were trying to make a political statement And hope nobody bothered to check the facts ...

 

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

First one on google

 

 

shows productivity as well which was handy seeing as you asked 

interestingly the same google search reveals a link to the TUC website in 2014  that says uk workers work the most in Europe but I'm sure they were trying to make a political statement And hope nobody bothered to check the facts ...

 

yeah, that's referencing the 2011 ONS stats

the figures were revised and updated during 2014 and 2015 by the ONS

we're now below Italy and Spain on number of hours worked and productivity per hour 

ONS

 

 

 

[OutByEaster?]

It's interesting that the Swedes are looking at going to a six hour working day. There's almost a perverse pride in the UK at the number of hours we work - I had a friend who worked in Paris for a while; where he worked, if you worked more than 36 hours a week, it was largely assumed that this was down to your incompetence rather than your diligence.

I think worker protections was one of the areas where we really benefitted from EU membership and one that worries me most going forwards.

 

 

[OutByEaster?]

*Ha! Sweden have this week abandoned plans for their six hour working day, largely just to spite me.

 

[tonyh29]

43 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

yeah, that's referencing the 2011 ONS stats

the figures were revised and updated during 2014 and 2015 by the ONS

we're now below Italy and Spain on number of hours worked and productivity per hour 

ONS

 

 

 

Bloody foreigners coming over here and decreasing our productivity ....

[tonyh29]

39 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

It's interesting that the Swedes are looking at going to a six hour working day. There's almost a perverse pride in the UK at the number of hours we work - I had a friend who worked in Paris for a while; where he worked, if you worked more than 36 hours a week, it was largely assumed that this was down to your incompetence rather than your diligence.

I think worker protections was one of the areas where we really benefitted from EU membership and one that worries me most going forwards.

 

 

I thought it was just the French went on strike if they had to work more than a few hours a day ?

But yeah over here it seems to be a badge of honour to tell everyone that you worked 14 hours putting smiley faces and ticks on homework whilst you drunk some wine and watched TV , it's like we use it to show our super powers of endurance over our fellow humans ... where as the French approach it differently  

[HanoiVillan]

11 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I thought it was just the French went on strike if they had to work more than a few hours a day ?

But yeah over here it seems to be a badge of honour to tell everyone that you worked 14 hours putting smiley faces and ticks on homework whilst you drunk some wine and watched TV , it's like we use it to show our super powers of endurance over our fellow humans ... where as the French approach it differently  

I don't think teachers regard as a badge of honour so much as a burden they wish others to be appraised of, when said others accuse them of being lazy good-for-nothings. 

[Awol]

25 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Bloody foreigners coming over here and decreasing our productivity ....

I read somewhere that because so many of the new jobs created since the crash are part-time (the zero hours contract curse) it drags down the overall productivity level. 

I haven't got time to try and find a link just now..