Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, Nicho said: the strongest voices are the ones basing it on immigration This is what I really don't understand about politics. The fact that the immigration issue seems to be the thing people have the strongest views about and if a politician listened and did something about it they would have no problems so why don't they sort it out if that's what the people who vote you in care about. I don't care either way as I don't live there but it is the topic that goes round and round. The subject is not that important I suppose, it could be tax,welfare or the permission to have 3 sheds per garden but if the public tell you the answer why not just listen to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 13 minutes ago, lapal_fan said: Gonna leave, can feel it. remain will win , probably by quite a margin .. the combination of Project Fear and the Diane'esque overreaction on Saint Jo will prevail it's what happens afterwards that will be interesting as I'm not sure where the Tories go from here , Cameron will get knifed , UKIP will probably kick out Farage as he can't keep losing , as a single issue party that lost the issue , UKIP may even fade away ... or having been struck down by the Dark Side they will grow more powerful than you can ever imagine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: remain will win , probably by quite a margin .. the combination of Project Fear and the Diane'esque overreaction on Saint Jo will prevail it's what happens afterwards that will be interesting as I'm not sure where the Tories go from here , Cameron will get knifed , UKIP will probably kick out Farage as he can't keep losing , as a single issue party that lost the issue , UKIP may even fade away ... or having been struck down by the Dark Side they will grow more powerful than you can ever imagine I can see what you're saying, and in my head I know the "outers" are much more vocal in their opinion than the "remain" camp. But I've been driving around the Cotswolds and every driveway (ok, about 30%) has a "Vote Leave" "We want our country back" sign on it. Then you watch TV and the public (most of the over 40s) are saying "We want our sovereignty back", "we need to close our borders", "Brussels has too much power", "we should be making our own laws" etc etc. It's a very significant proportion of our society. Question time was full of "outers" when Cameron was on, all of them looked or sounded either simple, or very well off. I just think the Out campaign has a lot more to go for it in terms of buzzwords and, dare I say, fear. Cameron has struck out on migration issues, because as has been discussed on here, he doesn't have anywhere to go because of the things he has said in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 21, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, lapal_fan said: I can see what you're saying, and in my head I know the "outers" are much more vocal in their opinion than the "remain" camp. But I've been driving around the Cotswolds and every driveway (ok, about 30%) has a "Vote Leave" "We want our country back" sign on it. Then you watch TV and the public (most of the over 40s) are saying "We want our sovereignty back", "we need to close our borders", "Brussels has too much power", "we should be making our own laws" etc etc. It's a very significant proportion of our society. Question time was full of "outers" when Cameron was on, all of them looked or sounded either simple, or very well off. I just think the Out campaign has a lot more to go for it in terms of buzzwords and, dare I say, fear. Cameron has struck out on migration issues, because as has been discussed on here, he doesn't have anywhere to go because of the things he has said in the past. There does seem to be an abundance of Leave campaigning in the more rural areas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicho Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: This is what I really don't understand about politics. The fact that the immigration issue seems to be the thing people have the strongest views about and if a politician listened and did something about it they would have no problems so why don't they sort it out if that's what the people who vote you in care about. I don't care either way as I don't live there but it is the topic that goes round and round. The subject is not that important I suppose, it could be tax,welfare or the permission to have 3 sheds per garden but if the public tell you the answer why not just listen to them? I don't think immigration is the route cause of a lot of our issues but if you pull back public funding to the NHS, police force, transport etc and then blame the short fall of those services on immigrants they are going to be blamed for the issues. Remove the immigrants and realise that the funding is still killing these services in my opinion. The sun and the daily mail will have you believe it's all the sick, homeless, job less, cancer spreading immigrants are responsible for the problems with the country not the government in place. Leave that conversation for another thread. But the out vote is the current eaiest and quickest way to solve the immigrant crisis. I look forward tot he Calais border being returned to Dover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 19 minutes ago, lapal_fan said: Gonna leave, can feel it. Watched the One Show and they gave random people videos about hot topics within the debate. Nearly everyone over 40 (bar a few) were initially voting out, then watching these videos, which they then viewed as "covering up truths" - even though the things that they say are true (350m per week for example) are factually completely untrue. It's like because they went in thinking it was true, they cannot unthink it because that makes them wrong.. which they refuse to be a possibility. Got to hope the students climb out their pits on Thursday. £350m is as factual as 'we'll be £4300 poorer if we leave'. Remain are the absolute worst for lies, scare and dishonesty. Remember the govt leaflet! Disgraceful. I hope the students bother to learn about both sides instead of simply worrying about their holidays. I don't care which way they vote after that, I just wish people bothered to think and not react. The same can be said for non-students who are voting on immigration. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Just now, Stevo985 said: There does seem to be an abundance of Leave campaigning in the more rural areas. To be fair, for farmers and people within that community, you can sort of see why they want to leave. What with all of the rules/regs they have to abide by. But I don't know enough to fully appreciated the pro's/cons on the farming matter, so maybe someone more knowledgeable on the subject could enlighten me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: £350m is as factual as 'we'll be £4300 poorer if we leave'. Remain are the absolute worst for lies, scare and dishonesty. Remember the govt leaflet! Disgraceful. I hope the students bother to learn about both sides instead of simply worrying about their holidays. I don't care which way they vote after that, I just wish people bothered to think and not react. The same can be said for non-students who are voting on immigration. Oh, I fully agree. If everyone was fully versed in this referendum, then no one could argue with the outcome, because it would be a "true" democratic vote. But because so many people don't really understand what's being sold to them (on either side), then the buzzwords like immigration, tax increases, job cuts etc etc then become the focus. But leaving or staying in the EU is so much more than just those buzzwords I listed. It is the Tories burden to carry, whatever the outcome. But it is the peoples burden there on after. After having looked at many sources now, including some hum-dingers on this forum (for out and in) - then I can only conclude that staying in is much more beneficial for this country than voting to leave. That said, it still interests me what leave voters are actually voting leave for. Because, and I say with sincerity, all of the points I have heard can be counter balanced with a simple video, or online source. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 one of my friends did a straw poll on Facebook and got 23 remain and 3 leave , I'd say the leave people on his feed were roundly chastised and thus it possibly stopped others from coming forward so it's not a true reflection , but a few weeks back I reckon his same poll would have been closer to 13 v 13 momentum has turned , at least in public , once people get in that booth they can't get a lecture from someone telling them they are a bad person , an idiot , going to hell etc so then they may vote differently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 11 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: remain will win , probably by quite a margin .. the combination of Project Fear and the Diane'esque overreaction on Saint Jo will prevail it's what happens afterwards that will be interesting as I'm not sure where the Tories go from here , Cameron will get knifed , UKIP will probably kick out Farage as he can't keep losing , as a single issue party that lost the issue , UKIP may even fade away ... or having been struck down by the Dark Side they will grow more powerful than you can ever imagine The remain camp are worrying for nothing. Even if the referendum produces the 'wrong' result, which is unlikely, there will be another referendum, or the government will just ignore the result. But I have every faith that the self-interest of the British electorate will ensure that they will do what they have always done in the last 37 years, sell their democratic rights to the highest bidder and accept the diktats from Brussels and pretend not to know how the EU protectionism keeps global competitors poor by subjecting them to tariffs and lowers the pay of the poorly paid, who they claim to care so much about. I can remember back in the Thatcher years when people voted away the jobs of their 'brothers' on the promise of extra overtime. This brought about the destruction of their rights and destroyed the institutions which had been their traditional means of political influence. They blamed the consequences on everyone and everything except their own selfish choices. The same will happen again because the middle classes are quite willing to allow low-skilled workers to flood the labour market to the detriment of the low-paid, because they know that their own jobs will be protected by the barriers which have been raised to minimise competition from highly skilled non-EU workers. They can justify all this because they can rationalise their own self-interest in terms of virtue signalling by claiming that restricting immigration is either racist or xenophobic, knowing full well that they themselves are protected. The middle-classes do most of the voting and I just can't see enough of them voting against their own financial interests, no matter what it means in terms of the erosion of their power to hold politicians accountable. It is just a question of cui bono and the answer is that it is the middle-classes who benefit the most from vested interests which lobby for the Remain vote, and as long as they are given enough slogans to rationalise their self-interested choices into virtues, they will vote to remain. The Lefty media have successfully framed the willingness to sacrifice democratic accountability for a cheaper week in Benidorm as noble and worrying about 300 thousand immigrants a year as racist or xenophobic, and as is understood, adding altruism to the act of consuming is a winner with the middle-classes who like a side dish of piety served with every purchase. There's no greater sign that it is going to be an easy win for the Remain side, than when MPs start rushing to change sides for the flimsiest of reasons. It definitely looks like a shoo-in for the Remain camp and it looks like we'll be waking up on Friday morning to find that it was never really in doubt and that we have all been suckered into yet another media-led festival of predetermined political theatrics. It was never really in doubt. It only remains to be seen what the Remain camp use their mandate to impose on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 21, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, lapal_fan said: That said, it still interests me what leave voters are actually voting leave for. Because, and I say with sincerity, all of the points I have heard can be counter balanced with a simple video, or online source. This. I'm sure there ARE good reasons to leave. But the only people I know who do want to leave have crap reasons! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 8 minutes ago, lapal_fan said: That said, it still interests me what leave voters are actually voting leave for. Because, and I say with sincerity, all of the points I have heard can be counter balanced with a simple video, or online source. for me it's telling that Cameron and Corbyn seem to be saying we should remain and reform the EU from inside .... personally I don't think they can to the extent a lot of people want ( even some remain voters I think are prepared to concede the EU is sorta flawed) ... but as Cameron has been quick to tell everyone on Turkey it only needs 1 veto and frankly once the UK vote to stay in I don't think the other 27 nations will be quite so quick to accede to our demands An out vote probably is the best shot at EU reform for ALL of Europe , I base this on a Michael Gove like Project Hope , rather than any foundation in fact , but that's why I'm still 95% likely to vote Out ... Immigration and all the other guff doesn't come into it as far as I'm concerned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: for me it's telling that Cameron and Corbyn seem to be saying we should remain and reform the EU from inside .... personally I don't think they can to the extent a lot of people want ( even some remain voters I think are prepared to concede the EU is sorta flawed) ... but as Cameron has been quick to tell everyone on Turkey it only needs 1 veto and frankly once the UK vote to stay in I don't think the other 27 nations will be quite so quick to accede to our demands An out vote probably is the best shot at EU reform for ALL of Europe , I base this on a Michael Gove like Project Hope , rather than any foundation in fact , but that's why I'm still 95% likely to vote Out ... Immigration and all the other guff doesn't come into it as far as I'm concerned Thanks Question then What EU reform are you wanting? What are the your main issues with the EU (and us being in it)? Lastly, do you not think that, should the country vote remain, that we could get back around the table and re-negotiate (again) for this magical "better deal"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: An out vote probably is the best shot at EU reform for ALL of Europe , I base this on a Michael Gove like Project Hope , rather than any foundation in fact , but that's why I'm still 95% likely to vote Out So is your ideal result that once we've left the EU they will reform without us? Or are you hoping a leave vote will result in rapid concessions and then we can have another referendum that will result in us staying? Or have I utterly misunderstood? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) 58 minutes ago, lapal_fan said: To be fair, for farmers and people within that community, you can sort of see why they want to leave. What with all of the rules/regs they have to abide by. But I don't know enough to fully appreciated the pro's/cons on the farming matter, so maybe someone more knowledgeable on the subject could enlighten me. As I understand it below are a few issues, happy to be corrected. Unlike housebuilding I research, not work in agriculture. If you look at it from the price of milk you'll get some idea where the EU is impacting our farmers domestic and export powers. Since 2006 EU milk producers have more than halved, down 600,000 companies. Two years ago EU quotas for milk production were removed, a downturn in demand meant the gate price of milk dropped again which caused more businesses to close. The majority of these were local farmers who due to oversupply struggled to complete in the domestic market. Subsidies on land also frustrate. Many are historical which means the largest subsidies may go to land which now isn't being farmed, the subsidy can continue for letting the land go wild. Some farmers keep their land and subsidy and then share it with new farmers. The problem is, as with the UK (welfare to work as an example) there are far too many middle men taking a cut and too many regulations to allow that. The EU is trying to change things but France as a founder member has no interest in sharing a major funding stream to help new EU farmers. It won't reform in any wholly positive way. Then there are crop rotations and subsidy reliance. One tells farmers how to farm and the other tells farmers that they know their methods aren't working so they'll top them up. I find that a little perverse and confusing because as more countries join that subsidy will no doubt come under pressure. Our Govt said they will continue the subsidy if we left but farmers are cautious because they don't have a great relationship with the Government. Edited June 21, 2016 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccfcman Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 11 hours ago, tonyh29 said: Farage or Corbyn does it really mater ? I like how the ill informed chose to assume the woman has no place in being pointed out. Perhaps the absolute ignorance wasn't intentional, for what it is worth Mary Lou McDonald is an elected sitting member of Dáil Eireann (the Irish parliament). Mind you, so is Adams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Just now, chrisp65 said: So is your ideal result that once we've left the EU they will reform without us? Or are you hoping a leave vote will result in rapid concessions and then we can have another referendum that will result in us staying? Or have I utterly misunderstood? No , I don't think it will be rapid concessions but I've a feeling that an out vote will possibly see other countries wanting their own referendums (The French who I've always liked , are rumoured to be 60 /40 against the EU for example) or their governments doing whatever they can to head it off at the pass .... these 2 years of negotiating result in a take it or leave it offer which of course is the gamble as Project Spite could be put into play but I suspect if free trade without freedom of movement was offered (big IF of course) that the UK government would take that as a victory and we could stay , there is nothing in the EU treaty to prevent the UK government holding a second referendum. as I say it's got no real foundation other than years of reading far too many news articles .... the short of it is The European Union remains fragile , the other EU countries almost need the UK preventing the formation of a too dominant Germany , hence why I think this has a long way to play out yet ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: Then there are crop rotations and subsidy reliance. One tells farmers how to farm and the other tells farmers that they know their methods aren't working so they'll top them up. I find that a little perverse and confusing because as more countries join that subsidy will no doubt come under pressure. on the subject of food I read an article that says the EU dump billions of cheap food on Africa whist tariffs make it nigh on impossible for African farmers to compete , end result Africa stays poor and we send Africa £xxxx million a year in Aid whilst they stay poor ... Africa can't sell coffee to the EU as it carries a 7.5% tariff , so it has to sell unroasted green coffee which is a tariff free .. as a rough idea Africa producing the coffee gets $2.4 bn , Germany gets $3.8bn from coffee re-exports 30% is the tariff on Cocoa beans I believe I'm sure there is a better way that works for everyone ? Edited June 21, 2016 by tonyh29 neigh changed to Nigh to remove any horseplay 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 15 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: on the subject of food I read an article that says the EU dump billions of cheap food on Africa whist tariffs make it neigh on impossible for African farmers to compete , end result Africa stays poor and we send Africa £xxxx million a year in Aid whilst they stay poor ... Africa can't sell coffee to the EU as it carries a 7.5% tariff , so it has to sell unroasted green coffee which is a tariff free .. as a rough idea Africa producing the coffee gets $2.4 bn , Germany gets $3.8bn from coffee re-exports 30% is the tariff on Cocoa beans I believe I'm sure there is a better way that works for everyone ? It seems to prove that it is racist for workers to object to having to compete for work against cheaper foreign competition, but it is not racist for white European farmers to be protected from having to compete with cheaper African farmers. It seems to indicate that there are different rules for different classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 52 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: on the subject of food I read an article that says the EU dump billions of cheap food on Africa whist tariffs make it neigh on impossible for African farmers to compete , end result Africa stays poor and we send Africa £xxxx million a year in Aid whilst they stay poor ... Africa can't sell coffee to the EU as it carries a 7.5% tariff , so it has to sell unroasted green coffee which is a tariff free .. as a rough idea Africa producing the coffee gets $2.4 bn , Germany gets $3.8bn from coffee re-exports 30% is the tariff on Cocoa beans I believe I'm sure there is a better way that works for everyone ? Well if we look at energy many other EU countries are looking at on site energy generation but we won't, and being part of the EU seems to be our politicians excuse to not act. Two of UK's major EU funded clean energy projects have now shut (never got off the ground) and because the EU clean energy policy has failed entirely even the EU funding model is moving to a less risk strategy with big companies providing the innovation and investment. This means less potential funding for on site energy generation. This impacts Africa because if we left we could inwardly invest in LEDs for food production, on site energy and more versatile support for clean energy, such as more drillers to reduce the ludicrous cost of boreholes for ground source heating. African would directly improve if some nation, or state...EU I'm looking at you...had a flexible international strategy to solve the energy crisis, sadly the EU spreads itself too thin without a proper mechanism for change. We're not blameless, the green deal is an example of how poorly understood the energy industry is. All our govt's have failed renewables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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