snowychap Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: If this government had come up with a policy that said ‘We don’t think people on low incomes know how to budget their money so benefit increases will be in the form of US style food stamps”, then I can only imagine the tizzy this thread would work itself into. Whilst schools were closed due to Covid, there was, apparently, a £15 voucher scheme (with certain retailers on certain products*) introduced for those eligible for free school meals. I think voucher schemes (or similar payment card schemes or food stamps) are stupid, dehumanising schemes which are intended to stigmatise their users but you'd probably write off what I see as valid criticism of such schemes and the actual reasons behind why they are introoduced in those particular ways as 'getting in to a tizzy'. *Btw, this appeared merely to give space for that age old canard that they're only spending it on booze, fags and lottery tickets. See also tropes about 'child benefit'. Edited October 23, 2020 by snowychap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAboutTheFinish Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 14 minutes ago, snowychap said: I think voucher schemes (or similar payment card schemes or food stamps) are stupid, dehumanising schemes which are intended to stigmatise their users Sorry to disappoint but I agree with the part quoted 100%. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Given a choice between cash a voucher for food the opportunity for hunger to inspire me I’d probably go for either of the first two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: Sorry to disappoint but I agree with the part quoted 100%. You're not disappointing me. I'm grateful for your response. Without people explaining their position, others are forced to imagine what it is and, perhaps, to suppose that not voicing criticism is at the very least a tacit approval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 1 minute ago, chrisp65 said: Given a choice between cash a voucher for food the opportunity for hunger to inspire me I’d probably go for either of the first two. I'm not sure that particularly addresses the points being made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 1 minute ago, snowychap said: I'm not sure that particularly addresses the points being made. It doesn’t. There’s a whole argument on how the state can best engage with people, what support and benefits are for, what the state is for, how we assess the long term value of all forms of help and assistance and carrots and sticks. All of that, is pretty much my partners job, to try and number crunch and prove or disprove beneficial effect. However, politics and strategy and excel spreadsheets and data aside, half term is around the corner so right now they need access to toast in the morning and beans and mash at tea time. So for this week and next week. Cash and / or vouchers for the hungry scruffy kids please. Three weeks time, different slant to the conversation for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: It doesn’t. Exactly. There was no need to expound upon why it doesn't. Edited October 23, 2020 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, snowychap said: Exactly. There was no need to expound upon why it doesn't. Oh I’m on a **** ranting roll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 End subsidised food for MPs It’s petty, it’s rushed, and it misses the point and all that. But perhaps, just maybe, 100,000 signatures this morning, means the general public might just be getting close to where they start to pay attention. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 12 hours ago, Xann said: Independent Lot of wages and school dinners there 12 hours ago, chrisp65 said: But in ten years time, people in specific areas of Birmingham will get to London 15 minutes quicker rather than needing the hassle of zoom meetings. Swings and roundabouts. While I appreciate the rhetorical point you're making, I think it's a bad idea, if we have left-of-centre politics, to talk about politics as if there is a fixed pot of money which can either be spent on high-speed rail or on financial and nutritional assistance for the needy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: While I appreciate the rhetorical point you're making, I think it's a bad idea, if we have left-of-centre politics, to talk about politics as if there is a fixed pot of money which can either be spent on high-speed rail or on financial and nutritional assistance for the needy. Yep, again, I agree with that. You’re correct. But I don’t think we’re going to get sufficient interested voters up to speed on the abstract definition of what money is, before half term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 3 hours ago, snowychap said: . . . I am pretty fed up with the assumption that everyone lives in a bubble, everywhere is nothing but an echo chamber and no one exposes themselves to (or tries to expose themselves to) opposing or different points of view.* It may well be the case in some situations but that it has become the go to in any discussion is a very unhelpful, simplistic reading of things. I also think that the echo chamber/lack of exposure reading might well be getting the polarisation debate slightly the wrong way around, too, but that's a different story. *Or even worse, the idea that people with a right wing agenda are somehow 'silenced' . . . Strongly agree with all parts of this: Think the 'filter bubble hypothesis' is completely, factually wrong TBH; Agree that it certainly is inadequate to explain partisan polarisation; Also agree that it is very tiresome for people to vacate the debate and then claim they are being 'silenced', both here and elsewhere. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted October 23, 2020 Moderator Share Posted October 23, 2020 7 hours ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: If you look over even just this page you will see Tories being called racist, ignorant, thick as pigsh*t, words removed and evil words removed! Whereas no doubt I’ve just set up somebody for a ‘yeah exactly, right on’ response...it shouldn’t really come as a surprise that people don’t want to engage. **** snowflakes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: While I appreciate the rhetorical point you're making, I think it's a bad idea, if we have left-of-centre politics, to talk about politics as if there is a fixed pot of money which can either be spent on high-speed rail or on financial and nutritional assistance for the needy. Absolutely medium and long term. Right now we don't know how long the economy will be hobbled, and the longer we piss about the more money is wasted, and the amount of money that can be lost in massive construction projects is huge. I put the roofs on Paddington Point. We charged around £5000 a day to the contractor, they passed that on to the client as £70,000 per day. That was a balcony, wasn't even the main event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NurembergVillan Posted October 23, 2020 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted October 23, 2020 6 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Just now, Xann said: Absolutely medium and long term. Right now we don't know how long the economy will be hobbled, and the longer we piss about the more money is wasted, and the amount of money that can be lost in massive construction projects is huge. I put the roofs on Paddington Point. We charged around £5000 a day to the contractor, they passed that on to the client as £70,000 per day. That was a balcony, wasn't even the main event. Think this gets the timescales backwards - right now it is about as cheap for the government to borrow money as it has ever been. We're also in the midst of an economic crisis. I really can't think of a better time to be spending money on capital projects. That's why the argument against HS2 - if one wants to make one - is better if it is an argument that other capital projects would represent a better financial and social rate of return. But big picture, not particularly worried about the finances right now. (I take your point about the billing, but this problem is not limited to HS2 - it would be good if projects overran on cost by much smaller margins, but I can think of other things to be more worried about). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) I think the return for the investment is bonkers. I know how they run trains in this country. Put it into clean energy. Edited October 23, 2020 by Xann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post HanoiVillan Posted October 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) This is now the second domestic terror attack targeted at lawyers in the last month or so. Priti Patel might as well be urging them on: Seems hard to imagine that none of these guys will ever be successful, so you have to assume that as an immigration or human rights lawyer, you are in lethal danger. EDIT: Should probably also interrogate the thinking into the choice of 'extremist' rather than 'terrorist' in the tweet there, and also of 'migrants' rather than 'refugees'. Edited October 23, 2020 by HanoiVillan 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Out of curiosity, did any tory MP’s call out Sir Captain Tom Moore for virtue signalling? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 More good news for the Tories Quote Rape case prosecutors must disregard sext messages BBC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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