The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[darrenm]

Don't worry I'll have a look myself.

I assume you both mean this?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jul/23/jeremy-corbyn-denies-promising-to-wipe-student-debts

Corbyn said the party was not aware of how much writing off the debt burden would cost. “What I said was we would deal with it by trying to reduce the burden of it,” he said. “We never said we would completely abolish it because we were unaware of the size of it at that time.”

which was after he didn't say he'd write off all student debt and because he didn't say it he didn't need to know how much?

[colhint]

well that's one way to view it but when two labour front benchers for public health and international development said they would be written off it's not surprising that a youguv poll of students 59%  thought that they would be written  off or reduced

[darrenm]

17 minutes ago, colhint said:

well that's one way to view it but when two labour front benchers for public health and international development said they would be written off it's not surprising that a youguv poll of students 59%  thought that they would be written  off or reduced

Like I keep asking, got a link?

[darrenm]

19 minutes ago, colhint said:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-tuition-fee-debt-jeremy-corbyn_uk_597719a5e4b0c95f375e3

https://order-order.com/page/4/

How is any of that Corbyn or Labour saying they'll write off all historic debt?

Here's a brief rundown of what's actually happened as some people seem to have trouble with the concept of current and historic student debt.

The Labour manifesto promised to end tuition fees and write off fees for everyone currently a student, which is a tiny amount compared to all historic student debt, and is costed in the manifesto.

Corbyn is interviewed in NME and is asked about all the people who have historic student debt. Corbyn says yes it's something they'd like to think about and there are numerous options that he'd look into if he became PM. "I'll deal with it" after giving examples of how he could deal with it.

Imran Hussain says "every existing student would have their debts wiped off" which is correct as it was in the manifesto. Not historic debt for all people who have ever been students.

Labour *backbencher* Sharon Hodgson chose poor wording when saying debt for existing students could be wiped out (in the manifesto) when tweeting "Labour could write off historic student debts"

Only the wilfully keen to misunderstand would think Labour were ever promising to write off all historic student debt, which is ridiculous because as Angela Rayner said it's about £80bn

[colhint]

https://order-order.com/page/4/

sarah hodgeson for public health 2 tweets about student  and imran hussein    from international development

you can take them anyway you want but if front benchers thought the debt was going you can forgive the students

[darrenm]

7 minutes ago, colhint said:

https://order-order.com/page/4/

sarah hodgeson for public health 2 tweets about student  and imran hussein    from international development

you can take them anyway you want but if front benchers thought the debt was going you can forgive the students

The link doesn't say anything about what we're discussing. And I've already covered what you said above.

Do you understand the difference between historic student debt and students currently in education having their fees paid off? Because the former was never promised by anyone from Labour.

[colhint]

You may believe that but I live in a strong Tory constituency, David Davies as it happens. The thing is the next constituency is a new MP but was Alan Johnson, strong labour seat. My 17 year old daughter and  her friends were trying to convince everyone at  her school 2000 kids to boot,  which is half and half in each constituency, to vote labour on student debt. Now everyone at the school wouldn't touch Labour with a bargepole, and they have many classroom debates about it,  We all know politicians are liars just the kids in both constituencies just think Labour are liars

[magnkarl]

9 minutes ago, colhint said:

You may believe that but I live in a strong Tory constituency, David Davies as it happens. The thing is the next constituency is a new MP but was Alan Johnson, strong labour seat. My 17 year old daughter and  her friends were trying to convince everyone at  her school 2000 kids to boot,  which is half and half in each constituency, to vote labour on student debt. Now everyone at the school wouldn't touch Labour with a bargepole, and they have many classroom debates about it,  We all know politicians are liars just the kids in both constituencies just think Labour are liars

But I thought all the outrage from the young uns' were only a few UKIP trolls on twitter? Why listen to people who actually see how students and young folks reacted to the way Corbyn slithered around this subject when you can buy a new red-coloured Corbyn "che" t-shirt?

Fight the powah!

[snowychap]

8 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

But I thought all the outrage from the young uns' were only a few UKIP trolls on twitter?

Who said that?

[magnkarl]

You did, two pages back.

Quote

Emma Griffiths looks like someone who spends half her time retweeting sutff by Tommy Robinson or Paul Joseph Watson, and

Several posters who actually saw how young people reacted to this student loan saga warned the labour stalwarts on here about it, though in a pretty conservative fashion they dismissed it with "no one's really upset - look at something else!" and JC uttered something like "oh, I didn't really mean to say it like that, and my calculator couldn't really multiply to such a large number so I have decided to be even more vague in my language about "dealing with it". 

Things on Corbyn's to-do list:

1) Deal with dandelion in his allotment plot, aka leave it for the next election cycle and then promise all the dandelions that they'll have a fresh lease of life in an unburdened new veg patch.

2) Deal with student loan - really meaning that he won't touch it with a barge pole however enthusing the young vote for an election he lost by a large margin which will lead to the same people resenting him for a failed "promise" next time around.

3) Deal with Diane Abbott's calculus. I hear this one will go down a treat with everyone who is queuing behind her in the Hackney Town Hall cafeteria when she's got her loose change wallet out.

4) Deal with his front garden. (really, look at some pictures of him leaving his house, it's like a Venezuelan jungle in there but at least the welfare system is good!)

All of the above is not serious. It's two days to go to the season starts and I feel like Brenda from Bristol about politics.

[snowychap]

3 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

You did, two pages back.

That's not going to wash, now, is it?

 

You made a claim -  he's pissed off the students he managed to convert;

@HanoiVillan asked you to provide evidence of your claim;

You posted three examples if you will which were tweets from Matt Chorley, @emmgriff66 and @britishbullybee;

I asked whether those three people were students that were likely to have voted for the Labour party on the back of an article in the NME, i.e. students he managed to convert, and explained in my edit why they might not have been the kind of people about whom you had made your claim.

[darrenm]

1 hour ago, colhint said:

You may believe that but I live in a strong Tory constituency, David Davies as it happens. The thing is the next constituency is a new MP but was Alan Johnson, strong labour seat. My 17 year old daughter and  her friends were trying to convince everyone at  her school 2000 kids to boot,  which is half and half in each constituency, to vote labour on student debt. Now everyone at the school wouldn't touch Labour with a bargepole, and they have many classroom debates about it,  We all know politicians are liars just the kids in both constituencies just think Labour are liars

I'm confused. Are you saying your 17 year old daughter and her friends were trying to convince everyone to vote Labour because they mistakenly thought Labour were promising to wipe all historic student debt? Why would this be of any concern to current students? The only promise made was to end tuition fees and fees for existing students and this still stands. Why would they feel cheated at this?

[tomsky_11]

On 24/07/2017 at 09:04, magnkarl said:

As Jonathan Pie eloquently put it

 

[Seat68]

Jesus. Its like no one is reading @darrenm posts. Historic. Pay attention. 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Seat68

[HanoiVillan]

7 hours ago, colhint said:

You may believe that but I live in a strong Tory constituency, David Davies as it happens. The thing is the next constituency is a new MP but was Alan Johnson, strong labour seat. My 17 year old daughter and  her friends were trying to convince everyone at  her school 2000 kids to boot,  which is half and half in each constituency, to vote labour on student debt. Now everyone at the school wouldn't touch Labour with a bargepole, and they have many classroom debates about it,  We all know politicians are liars just the kids in both constituencies just think Labour are liars

I mean, where to start with this? 

Firstly, we are to believe that your daughter and her friends, forces of nature though they no doubt are, merely have to click their fingers and 2000 other children/sheep say 'how high'. That's before we note that this is a school and your daughter isn't actually of voting age. Indeed, all but a tiny percentage of these furious students are teenagers. 

Secondly, we have the idea that all of this tween- and teenagers are massively upset at Labour deciding not to simply cancel the historic student debt of people significantly older than themselves. Because, as @darrenm keeps pointing out, the removal of tuition fees for current and future students (which is what 17 and 18 year-olds are) still stands, and is still party policy (rightly or wrongly). I mean, it's absolutely wonderful that your daughter and 1,999 of her friends and acquaintances are so selfless about the loan repayments of people much older than themselves, it's just, you know, a little hard to believe. 

[tonyh29]

9 hours ago, darrenm said:

The only promise made was to end tuition fees and fees for existing students and this still stands

that's true enough (in terms of Corbyn )  , but it became quite clear that wasn't quite how it was being interpreted by many people (by which I don't just mean on VT  ) 

i.e use of the words " I appreciate that and we will look into that effect ......  I’m entirely sympathetic to it'" and   "I'll deal with it "  in regards to student debt   .. meant that a lot of people took to social media  spouting that Corbyn was going to remove all student debt , indeed I saw a few people posting exactly that on my Facebook feed along with the words "he's getting my vote"  ... now I don't know if he was already getting that vote , or if that was the deal clincher but either way  there didn't appear to be any clarification on this point until after the election , and I can't help but think that was probably intentional , not unique to Corbyn it should be said , it's kinda what Politicians do

So , on the grounds he never promised it , Darren is quite correct  but somehow I can't help but think had the exact same words been used by May , we'd now have labour supporters accusing her of a U-turn

[Demitri_C]

17 hours ago, darrenm said:

Don't worry I'll have a look myself.

I assume you both mean this?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jul/23/jeremy-corbyn-denies-promising-to-wipe-student-debts

 

which was after he didn't say he'd write off all student debt and because he didn't say it he didn't need to know how much?

So as I said Darren how can you make any pledges or "deal with student debt" if you dont actually know the numbers? Very poor show from Corbyn there

[Demitri_C]

48 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

that's true enough (in terms of Corbyn )  , but it became quite clear that wasn't quite how it was being interpreted by many people (by which I don't just mean on VT  ) 

i.e use of the words " I appreciate that and we will look into that effect ......  I’m entirely sympathetic to it'" and   "I'll deal with it "  in regards to student debt   .. meant that a lot of people took to social media  spouting that Corbyn was going to remove all student debt , indeed I saw a few people posting exactly that on my Facebook feed along with the words "he's getting my vote"  ... now I don't know if he was already getting that vote , or if that was the deal clincher but either way  there didn't appear to be any clarification on this point until after the election , and I can't help but think that was probably intentional , not unique to Corbyn it should be said , it's kinda what Politicians do

So , on the grounds he never promised it , Darren is quite correct  but somehow I can't help but think had the exact same words been used by May , we'd now have labour supporters accusing her of a U-turn

Can anyone confirm Corbyn saying he knew the debt at the time during the election?

Did he ever say in the election he COULDNT abolish student loan fees for existing people who are paying them?

If he did can someone show us that? 

 

 

[StefanAVFC]

6 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

So as I said Darren how can you make any pledges or "deal with student debt" if you dont actually know the numbers? Very poor show from Corbyn there

He didn't make a pledge. It was a comment made in a single interview. Alongside giving multiple potential ways of 'dealing with it'.

Read Darren's posts. The faux-outage is maddening.

[Demitri_C]

6 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

He didn't make a pledge. It was a comment made in a single interview. Alongside giving multiple potential ways of 'dealing with it'.

Read Darren's posts. The faux-outage is maddening.

I am not outraged by this Stefan, for me I find it very sly and underhanded. Should have been honest about his position with regards to student loan debt.