HanoiVillan Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, snowychap said: The outrage doesn't seem to be about Maduro, his despotism, the recent power grab and just how much of a dire situation it would appear to be for Venezuelans. No, it's a will-you-condemnathon, and just so we're clear, no matter how much condemning is done, it will never be enough. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Seat68 said: Could you elaborate on your outrage? I am not getting what the issue is, he praised a countrys welfare and infrastructure. No outrage just pointing out fact! Hopefully by the end of the week, many days/weeks/months/years later, we'll know whether Corbyn has a backbone...and again, I do like Corbyn....time for a signature change! Edited August 3, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted August 3, 2017 It's like an inversion of the old Hitler fallacy - Hitler liked dogs therefore dogs are bad. Venezuela had good social welfare, people praised it, Venezuela turns to shit, how dare you praise Venezuela climb down and condemn it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Good god! I was never a fan of history but some of the replies in here really are gif worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deisler123 Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 (edited) I recently got interested in British politics, and wonder anyone can explain to me why Labour party in this country is often referred to as a 'left-wing party'? I am aware of the usual image of 'class-less revolution'/Marxism being left-wing, and of course a political party that is built upon the support of 'workers' is naturally linked to 'left'. But I am still confused by the classification in Britain. - Has Labour party been traditionally defined as 'left-wing party' since its birth? What was the attitude of ordinary people towards Labour pre/post WWII? I understand that NHS was 'created' by Labour and the idea of NHS is in fact 'left-wing', i.e. anti-privatisation (thus anti-capitalism). So surely Labour should not be judged/hated purely by being 'left-wing' (because people love the idea of NHS)? - I heard back in 70s there were some 'privatisation' of state-owned businesses approved by Conservatives. And it seems to me (maybe I am wrong) that more and more people are arguing against that idea. Was Labour against that back in 70s? - In a few TV debates I watched on BBC, when people (including those panelists) tried to accuse someone's idea being 'left-wing', they will call them 'socialists' rather than 'communists'. My understanding is, generally speaking, 'socialism' being mid-left-wing while communism being 'extreme left-wing'. My confusion here is, why people often use the word 'socialist' when they are referring to 'left-wing' ideas? Is it because in British history, there were some socialist parties but never had strong communism movement? Edited August 3, 2017 by Deisler123 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 So the wheels starting to slowly fall over Corbyns fantasy manifiesto, as some of us highlighted his manifesto was great but completely unworkable due to the amount it would cost. Like I said neither candidate can be trusted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted August 3, 2017 18 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: Good god! I was never a fan of history but some of the replies in here really are gif worthy. Clever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Deisler123 said: I recently got interested in British politics, and wonder anyone can explain to me why Labour party in this country is often referred to as a 'left-wing party'? I am aware of the usual image of 'class-less revolution'/Marxism being left-wing, and of course a political party that is built upon the support of 'workers' is naturally linked to 'left'. But I am still confused by the classification in Britain. - Has Labour party been traditionally defined as 'left-wing party' since its birth? What was the attitude of ordinary people towards Labour pre/post WWII? I understand that NHS was 'created' by Labour and the idea of NHS is in fact 'left-wing', i.e. anti-privatisation (thus anti-capitalism). So surely Labour should not be judged/hated purely by being 'left-wing' (because people love the idea of NHS)? - I heard back in 70s there were some 'privatisation' of state-owned businesses approved by Conservatives. And it seems to me (maybe I am wrong) that more and more people are arguing against that idea. Was Labour against that back in 70s? - In a few TV debates I watched on BBC, when people (including those panelists) tried to accuse someone's idea being 'left-wing', they will call them 'socialists' rather than 'communists'. My understanding is, generally speaking, 'socialism' being mid-left-wing while communism being 'extreme left-wing'. My confusion here is, why people often use the word 'socialist' when they are referring to 'left-wing' ideas? Is it because in British history, there were some socialist parties but never had strong communism movement? I think you'll get a more accurate response from some others but I'll reply from my own perspective as a swing voter (someone who hasn't decided who they vote for). 1. I was born in the early 80's so I don't know how people felt about Labour just after the war but there's a hangover of people who think Labour are left, or driven by socialist ideologies. Tragically, we have a two party system so voters/members like to put themselves into a box. It's pretty much meaningless! The whole left/right debate has been fairly well claimed by how people view welfare or whether they see themselves as caring or not, despite the majority supporting the ethos that we should help people through state intervention. Labour are seen to look after the people so must be left, Conservatives are seen as nasty to poor people so must be right. Our system now completely ignores policy as a way of differentiating left/right and you can see that by local politics, where the difference between the parties is minuscule but people still vote on whether they are left or right. 2. However, modern political history couldn't be further from the truth. Labour spent the 2000's privatising very much (NHS, welfare, utilities) and during the 90's put up a meagre fight against it. Their lefty hangover remains and so people believe they genuinely are noticeably more left. However, it's all a bit of a nonsense. If you look at British Leyland, who spawned some of the most iconic vehicles on the road today, Thatcher bailed them out because she felt they were too big to fail, or, the UK couldn't afford to see their jobs go! Privatisation does work both ways but the consequences of how that privatisation takes place is often ignored by the general public and media. Labour's privatisation is now about votes and not reality and so they aren't taken as seriously. Conservatives hold the position that Labour are fiscally irresponsible and so it appears as though one is left and other is right, the truth is they're both liars using left/right perspective to win power not explain what change means. 3. I think you've got the measure of that quite nicely. Edited August 3, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 17 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: So the wheels starting to slowly fall over Corbyns fantasy manifiesto, as some of us highlighted his manifesto was great but completely unworkable due to the amount it would cost. Like I said neither candidate can be trusted I'm not even worried about the cost, someone will always waste our cash. But he's proved himself a career politician with an agenda for rebellion but not change. Because he appears to shuns anything centrist, I feel he doesn't realise that he needs to deliver change under the softly, softly approach that much of the real world requires. Eg - Don't put all your eggs in the social housing basket, there are many more who need help, in fact probably more need help!!!! Or, don't just say we're going to take back our railways, say we're going to take back our lines to deliver competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Demitri_C said: So the wheels starting to slowly fall over Corbyns fantasy manifiesto, as some of us highlighted his manifesto was great but completely unworkable due to the amount it would cost. Like I said neither candidate can be trusted Sorry, when did Labour become the government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted August 3, 2017 1 minute ago, darrenm said: Sorry, when did Labour become the government? In your dreams Darren! ...Sorry, carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Just now, Chindie said: In your dreams Darren! ...Sorry, carry on. Well I'm being slightly facetious anyway as Jeremy Corbyn is actually the Prime Minister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Deisler123 said: I recently got interested in British politics, and wonder anyone can explain to me why Labour party in this country is often referred to as a 'left-wing party'? I am aware of the usual image of 'class-less revolution'/Marxism being left-wing, and of course a political party that is built upon the support of 'workers' is naturally linked to 'left'. But I am still confused by the classification in Britain. - Has Labour party been traditionally defined as 'left-wing party' since its birth? What was the attitude of ordinary people towards Labour pre/post WWII? I understand that NHS was 'created' by Labour and the idea of NHS is in fact 'left-wing', i.e. anti-privatisation (thus anti-capitalism). So surely Labour should not be judged/hated purely by being 'left-wing' (because people love the idea of NHS)? - I heard back in 70s there were some 'privatisation' of state-owned businesses approved by Conservatives. And it seems to me (maybe I am wrong) that more and more people are arguing against that idea. Was Labour against that back in 70s? - In a few TV debates I watched on BBC, when people (including those panelists) tried to accuse someone's idea being 'left-wing', they will call them 'socialists' rather than 'communists'. My understanding is, generally speaking, 'socialism' being mid-left-wing while communism being 'extreme left-wing'. My confusion here is, why people often use the word 'socialist' when they are referring to 'left-wing' ideas? Is it because in British history, there were some socialist parties but never had strong communism movement? Here's a handy infographic to show where on the scale the parties currently are: Nobody uses the term communist to describe Labour or their policies because it's considered so far out as to be unrecognisable thus wouldn't gain any credence as 'insult'. It just conjures up images of Russians in fur coats so any Tory who claimed Labour were communist wouldn't be taken seriously. However, it's absolutely fine for them to use 'far left' or 'extreme left' or 'extremists' as that is quite ambiguous and only suggests in the language that what Labour are proposing is a bit wacko or crazy and not sensible like 'us Tories old chap, you can trust us'. Although as you can see from the above graphic, the only parties at the extreme end of anything are Blukip (the term for Conservative (Tories) and UKIP, who with the DUP are almost exactly the same in their right wing, isolationist, free market ideologies. There's a thing called the Overton window which is the area of ideology and policies which the general population find acceptable. Since the late 1970s the UK has moved from the left to the right and gradually gotten further and further over with the Overton window now being very far right, which makes it seem that Labour's socialist policies are very left-wing when in reality they're quite centrist with the Tories being hard right. Unfortunately it seems that in a western Capitalist state, you can only gain power by being prepared to move further right that the current government. Labour realised this in the 90s and New Labour got in who were just a copy of the Conservatives at the time but slightly further right. This is the main cause of the animosity towards Corbyn, McDonnell and others who share their left-wing ideology. People saw moving Labour back to the left as having no hope of power and thought they would get decimated in the election. It turned out the country has now moved so far right that public infrastructure is starting to fall apart, and people are starting to push back and look for alternatives. I know others disagree with this bit but I don't think you can underestimate the influence of the British tabloids over the last 20 or 30 years. Yes, people in general do love the NHS but even that's starting to drop off as the tabloids print negative story after negative story about the NHS, convincing the media consuming masses that the NHS doesn't deserve to survive and needs privatising, just like more people than ever are convinced that immigrants are bleeding the country dry, that public sector workers are greedy, that everything will be fine if we lower taxes so the rich will drip down the wealth. For a scary glimpse into current attitudes, follow the https://twitter.com/DMReporter on Twitter. Not sure if that answers your questions. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 33 minutes ago, darrenm said: Sorry, when did Labour become the government? He isn't even in the government and his manifesto has holes in it! Imagine if he actually did win, there would be many more 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Just now, Demitri_C said: He isn't even in the government and his manifesto has holes in it! Imagine if he actually did win, there would be many more Which bits have holes in? I must have missed something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 Just now, darrenm said: Which bits have holes in? I must have missed something Do you think his manifesto was financially workable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Just now, Demitri_C said: Do you think his manifesto was financially workable? Yeah. It was fully costed. But which bits have holes in? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 Just now, darrenm said: Yeah. It was fully costed. But which bits have holes in? The part where he said he wasn't aware of the student loan debt? If you don't know what the debt is how do you plan to address it? How was that fully costed if he didnt know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: The part where he said he wasn't aware of the student loan debt? If you don't know what the debt is how do you plan to address it? How was that fully costed if he didnt know? Have you got a link? I don't remember him saying that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Well on the Andrew Marr show he did say he didn't know how big the debt was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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