Paul Lambert

[AVTuco]

Do not get the argument that points dictate progress. If you finished 2nd in the league with 85 points one season then finished 1st the next with 80 points thats progress. Or in our case if we finish 2/3 places higher then the last it means an extra 1 to 1.5 million

But you finishes higher because other teams did worse not because you did better.

TBH unless we win our final 6 games I don't see how anyone could claim improvement or progress.

I really hate to be drawn into this, but in my opinion Tony is right. What matters is league position. The goal or target is to reach as high a league position as possible. Points are just a tool to get to the goal.

The goal is to finish higher but points show how you've done over 38 games. If you have less points but finish higher is your league position down to your improvement or other teams doing worse?

Sorry BJ but in my opinion your question is not relevant. The league and teams in it evolve all the time, and seasons are not alike. All teams usually improve, but the question is who improves most. Points per season doesn't answer that question. Therefore I don't think you can make a direct comparison between two seasons regarding points

In sports everything is relative. Otherwise you could argue that no woman has deserved to get olympic gold on 100 meters since Florence Griffith Joyner in 1984. All have been worse since then. Would that be fair?

To me, league position is all that matters.

Well I disagree.

I don't see how anyone could claim we've progressed or improved this season. Whether that's based on points or position.

I wouldn't say we've made much progress either, if any. Edited April 7, 2014 by AVTuco

[The_Lions_Roar]

Do not get the argument that points dictate progress. If you finished 2nd in the league with 85 points one season then finished 1st the next with 80 points thats progress. Or in our case if we finish 2/3 places higher then the last it means an extra 1 to 1.5 million

But you finishes higher because other teams did worse not because you did better.

TBH unless we win our final 6 games I don't see how anyone could claim improvement or progress.

I really hate to be drawn into this, but in my opinion Tony is right. What matters is league position. The goal or target is to reach as high a league position as possible. Points are just a tool to get to the goal.

The goal is to finish higher but points show how you've done over 38 games. If you have less points but finish higher is your league position down to your improvement or other teams doing worse?

I'd answer both, if I'm allowed. Or are we always forced to chose between one or the other.

[Isa]

If all of a sudden nobody is interested in the points-total, why did they not ever once say so before? Given that such a methodology has been used to prove the progress we've made this season compared to last for months now.

In my defense, I'd say I haven't been part of this discussion. And it seems pretty obvious that many are interested in point total too. Which is fair, but not so important in my mind. I actually don't follow it at all.

No fair enough, I can't say I ever remember you promoting it.

[VillaChris]

Of course points comparisons over a season aren't always accurate but generally if over a season you get close to 50 points you'll probably be in the top half, if you get 60 + points over a season you'll probably finish in the top 6 as we obviously did in the 3 seasons under MON.

 

So yes I would like us to get past the mentality of just trying to scrape to 40 points every season as that's only ever going to get you a couple of places above the relegation zone. If we could just have a season of comfortably getting to 50 points like Southampton and Newcastle should do then that would give me hope we're slowly building towards eventually challenging the top 6 again.

 

Really 13, 14th,15th it doesn't matter to me, it's not good enough as we're miles off even the top 10.

[The_Lions_Roar]

Of course points comparisons over a season aren't always accurate but generally if over a season you get close to 50 points you'll probably be in the top half, if you get 60 + points over a season you'll probably finish in the top 6 as we obviously did in the 3 seasons under MON.

So yes I would like us to get past the mentality of just trying to scrape to 40 points every season as that's only ever going to get you a couple of places above the relegation zone. If we could just have a season of comfortably getting to 50 points like Southampton and Newcastle should do then that would give me hope we're slowly building towards eventually challenging the top 6 again.

Really 13, 14th,15th it doesn't matter to me, it's not good enough as we're miles off even the top 10.

That's my expectation next season, for me this season and last were always going to be about surviving, sadly.

[Tony]

Yes id say both can show progress, position is what matters though. I would rather finish with 38 points and sit in 13th position than get relegated with 40 points. They both coincide together anyway so its hard to argue the case for which one is right or wrong. 

[HeyAnty]

Moyes could become available, utd apparently in secret talks with Van Gaal

[pacbuddies]

Moyes could become available, utd apparently in secret talks with Van Gaal

Can't be that secret if you know about it! 

[HeyAnty]

Moyes could become available, utd apparently in secret talks with Van Gaal

Can't be that secret if you know about it!

Its a secret so dont be telling anyone

[Tayls]

Mannnn I can't believe Fulham have done the double over us. They have only won 8 games all season! Both times they have beaten us was whilst being bottom of the league, correct? Horrendous.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Tayls

[pacbuddies]

Mannnn I can't believe Fulham have done the double over us. They have only won 8 games all season! Both times they have beaten us was whilst being bottom of the league, correct? Horrendous.

Good news is that Sunderland are making a great effort to finish bottom and we don't have to play them again so hopefully we won't have to suffer losing to the bottom team again this season.

[Hanky]

Of course points comparisons over a season aren't always accurate but generally if over a season you get close to 50 points you'll probably be in the top half, if you get 60 + points over a season you'll probably finish in the top 6 as we obviously did in the 3 seasons under MON.

So yes I would like us to get past the mentality of just trying to scrape to 40 points every season as that's only ever going to get you a couple of places above the relegation zone. If we could just have a season of comfortably getting to 50 points like Southampton and Newcastle should do then that would give me hope we're slowly building towards eventually challenging the top 6 again.

Really 13, 14th,15th it doesn't matter to me, it's not good enough as we're miles off even the top 10.

That's my expectation next season, for me this season and last were always going to be about surviving, sadly.

Is Lerner likely to release any more funds in the summer though. Surely the time to do it was last summer, and we got Helenius, Tonev, Bowery, Luna et al.

[The_Lions_Roar]

Of course points comparisons over a season aren't always accurate but generally if over a season you get close to 50 points you'll probably be in the top half, if you get 60 + points over a season you'll probably finish in the top 6 as we obviously did in the 3 seasons under MON.

So yes I would like us to get past the mentality of just trying to scrape to 40 points every season as that's only ever going to get you a couple of places above the relegation zone. If we could just have a season of comfortably getting to 50 points like Southampton and Newcastle should do then that would give me hope we're slowly building towards eventually challenging the top 6 again.

Really 13, 14th,15th it doesn't matter to me, it's not good enough as we're miles off even the top 10.

That's my expectation next season, for me this season and last were always going to be about surviving, sadly.

Is Lerner likely to release any more funds in the summer though. Surely the time to do it was last summer, and we got Helenius, Tonev, Bowery, Luna et al.

I don't expect extra funds, but I expect the same as the last 2 seasons, around £20 mil. I believe Lambert will be looking to spend this on 3 or 4 players rather than 6 or 7. So I expect players to come in that will go straight into the first team.

[TRO]

 

 

 

 

Do not get the argument that points dictate progress. If you finished 2nd in the league with 85 points one season then finished 1st the next with 80 points thats progress. Or in our case if we finish 2/3 places higher then the last it means an extra 1 to 1.5 million

But you finishes higher because other teams did worse not because you did better.

TBH unless we win our final 6 games I don't see how anyone could claim improvement or progress.

I really hate to be drawn into this, but in my opinion Tony is right. What matters is league position. The goal or target is to reach as high a league position as possible. Points are just a tool to get to the goal.

The goal is to finish higher but points show how you've done over 38 games. If you have less points but finish higher is your league position down to your improvement or other teams doing worse?

I'd answer both, if I'm allowed. Or are we always forced to chose between one or the other.

 

 

I would throw a spanner  in the works and say....The quality of the football is more important or substance as i call it.

 

You can get a fairly lofty position now playing long ball or direct style football, but it is unlikely you will challenge the top teams, so progress has a glass ceiling playing that way.

 

Of course, the league position and points is important, but so is the football quality......thats what makes the points and league position believable or dubious..

Edited April 7, 2014 by TRO

[The_Lions_Roar]

Do not get the argument that points dictate progress. If you finished 2nd in the league with 85 points one season then finished 1st the next with 80 points thats progress. Or in our case if we finish 2/3 places higher then the last it means an extra 1 to 1.5 million

But you finishes higher because other teams did worse not because you did better.

TBH unless we win our final 6 games I don't see how anyone could claim improvement or progress.

I really hate to be drawn into this, but in my opinion Tony is right. What matters is league position. The goal or target is to reach as high a league position as possible. Points are just a tool to get to the goal.

The goal is to finish higher but points show how you've done over 38 games. If you have less points but finish higher is your league position down to your improvement or other teams doing worse?

I'd answer both, if I'm allowed. Or are we always forced to chose between one or the other.

I would throw a spanner in the works and say....The quality of the football is more important or substance as i call it.

You can get a fairly lofty position now playing long ball or direct style football, but it is unlikely you will challenge the top teams, so progress has a glass ceiling.

Of course, the league position and points is important, but so is the football......thats what makes the points and league position believable or dubious..

It is yes but that comes down to a matter of opinion. One person will argue its long ball whilst another will argue its a long pass. Whilst with points and league position its clear cut.

[McGregor1888]

 

 

I've been through this already before - the barometer of progress should always be league position

This is absolute rubbish and quite frankly sums up your whole opinion.

Points show how we've done over 38 games. The league table shows how we've done compared to everyone else. More teams doing worse than us this season is not an indication that we've progressed. It's nothing to do with us how poor other teams are.

Absolute nonsense.

Apparently spurs are currently 3 points off their best season in the prem at this stage. However they were 4th at that stage, now they're 7th. Do you think they were happier then or now?

 

 

Don't go confusing the poor lad like that, his head will explode.

[Sunny*Nunny]

According to Statto.com based on same number of games this time last season

20th - 24 points (Reading)

18th - 31 points (Wigan had 2 games in hand)

17th - 34 points (Aston Villa)

11th - 38 points Southampton

Aston villa

10 points from bottom

3 points from relegation spot

4 points from 11th

This season

20th - 25 points (Sunderland have 2 games in hand)

18th - 27 points (Fulham)

13th - 34 points (Aston Villa)

11th - 37 points West Ham

Aston villa

9 points from bottom

7 points from relegation spot

3 points from 11th

This isn't progress, or at least not enough for an argument based on points.

Also I think our league position is flattering AS IT STANDS, since a draw instead of a fortunate win (Southampton) would have seen us level on points with Norwich who are currently 17th.

With points so close throughout the bottom half, progress has to be top half finish with several points clearance otherwise we're clutching at straws in hope to see something that isn't there.

[Isa]

Apparently spurs are currently 3 points off their best season in the prem at this stage. However they were 4th at that stage, now they're 7th. Do you think they were happier then or now?

I don't get it. They had more points when they were 4th at this stage so what is the point?

[Big_John_10]

I've been through this already before - the barometer of progress should always be league position

This is absolute rubbish and quite frankly sums up your whole opinion.

Points show how we've done over 38 games. The league table shows how we've done compared to everyone else. More teams doing worse than us this season is not an indication that we've progressed. It's nothing to do with us how poor other teams are.

Absolute nonsense.

Apparently spurs are currently 3 points off their best season in the prem at this stage. However they were 4th at that stage, now they're 7th. Do you think they were happier then or now?

Don't go confusing the poor lad like that, his head will explode.

Haha yeah I'm the one confused. Trying to argue improvement and progression after this shit season.

Try again.

[TRO]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do not get the argument that points dictate progress. If you finished 2nd in the league with 85 points one season then finished 1st the next with 80 points thats progress. Or in our case if we finish 2/3 places higher then the last it means an extra 1 to 1.5 million

But you finishes higher because other teams did worse not because you did better.

TBH unless we win our final 6 games I don't see how anyone could claim improvement or progress.

I really hate to be drawn into this, but in my opinion Tony is right. What matters is league position. The goal or target is to reach as high a league position as possible. Points are just a tool to get to the goal.

The goal is to finish higher but points show how you've done over 38 games. If you have less points but finish higher is your league position down to your improvement or other teams doing worse?

I'd answer both, if I'm allowed. Or are we always forced to chose between one or the other.

I would throw a spanner in the works and say....The quality of the football is more important or substance as i call it.

You can get a fairly lofty position now playing long ball or direct style football, but it is unlikely you will challenge the top teams, so progress has a glass ceiling.

Of course, the league position and points is important, but so is the football......thats what makes the points and league position believable or dubious..

It is yes but that comes down to a matter of opinion. One person will argue its long ball whilst another will argue its a long pass. Whilst with points and league position its clear cut.

 

 it may well be an opinion, but it seems all the teams across Europe who aspire to winning their respective leagues, do elect to play an expansive style game....of course an element of direct play must come in to it, but the question is of how much a team relies on that style of just humping the ball with more hope than expectancy for most of their match.

 

we finished 6-6-6 with a not much better home record than we have now, a bit better but not by much....thats because league position and points is only part of the equation.