Brumerican Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Just now, fruitvilla said: You think curved space is easy to comprehend? OK in the video an elastic fabric is being curved. What is being curved in reality? I think the demo you showed is OK, it shows the behaviours of a curved space. But it does not help with what is being curved. There is no such thing as empty space . Even at the smallest scale there is an energy field where matter pops in and out of existence. The Sun and Earth are made from exactly the same material as empty space . It's all energy but just at different levels and frequencies. This is the basis of quantum field theory It actually links quite well with the cymatics videos I have been posting funnily enough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 10 minutes ago, Brumerican said: There is no such thing as empty space Never claimed there was 10 minutes ago, Brumerican said: Even at the smallest scale there is an energy field where matter pops in and out of existence Yep it is called the Vacuum Energy and results in the Casimir effect. 12 minutes ago, Brumerican said: The Sun and Earth are made from exactly the same material as empty space I am not sure about this, but I will take your word for this for the moment. Either way ... the densities will be many orders of magnitude different. 13 minutes ago, Brumerican said: It's all energy but just at different levels and frequencies. This is beginning to sound like gobbledygook now. But all this is fine, we were talking about relativistic effects which are described by continuous equations, while your quantum field theory and quantum phenomena in general are described by discontinuous theories. The two currently are not compatible. If you find all this easy to comprehend you are doing way better than I am. I stand by my claim it is not easy to comprehend. I should preface that by: Not easy for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Just now, fruitvilla said: This is beginning to sound like gobbledygook now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 The dimensions of energy are expressed in mass, distance and time. Energy has the dimensions mass x distance²/ time² So either energy is fundamental or mass, distance and time have to give. And with all due respect to Tesla ... still not easy to comprehend at least for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Just now, fruitvilla said: I stand by my claim it is not easy to comprehend. I should preface that by: Not easy for me. It's not easy no . I just spend a lot of time studying this stuff and I can visualise tough concepts pretty easily ( I just can't do the maths) I do find it strange that you dismissed the idea that everything is made of energy as gobbleydegook though when it's a basic principle of science. Energy and Mass are equivalent. Mass and Frequency are equivalent Frequency and Energy are equivalent. Everything in the Universe is made from the same one thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) If Tesla ain't your thing then ... Edited February 18, 2021 by Brumerican Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 5 minutes ago, Brumerican said: Everything in the Universe is made from the same one thing. Being monistically inclined philosophically, I would like this to be true. The problem is charge does not quite fit into your model. take an electron for example. It has a mass which we can think of as energy. But it still has charge. When we say energy is equivalent to mass we understand it is related by the factor c², and I could go through all the other equivalencies and give the factors. My personal take is to be a little scientifically agnostic about all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Just now, fruitvilla said: Being monistically inclined philosophically, I would like this to be true. The problem is charge does not quite fit into your model. take an electron for example. It has a mass which we can think of as energy. But it still has charge. When we say energy is equivalent to mass we understand it is related by the factor c², and I could go through all the other equivalencies and give the factors. My personal take is to be a little scientifically agnostic about all this. It's not MY model. It's not MY Quantum Field Theory either. Could you explain a little more what you mean by charge not fitting into THEIR models and theories ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 If we weren't ignorant to certain truths, we could never learn them. Great discussion fellas, look forward to absorbing it all properly and doing some further reading of my own. Let's not attach connotations of ownership to the discussion though. The insinuation, as far as I can see, has only been referring to one's suggested way of life and looking at it, rather than a suggestion that one claims some form of ownership by the idea being original to the poster mentioning it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, A'Villan said: If we weren't ignorant to certain truths, we could never learn them. Great discussion fellas, look forward to absorbing it all properly and doing some further reading of my own. Let's not attach connotations of ownership to the discussion though. The insinuation, as far as I can see, has only been referring to one's suggested way of life and looking at it, rather than a suggestion that one claims some form of ownership by the idea being original to the poster mentioning it. String theory is all mine but I get no credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Whilst on the subject of orbits, resonance and cymatic patterns here is a gif of the orbits of Earth and Venus and shows the pattern made by joining a line between Earth and Venus as they zip around the Sun. Kinda spooky how a planet linked with the morning star / Lucifer makes a pentagram pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted February 18, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 18, 2021 I used to have a Spirograph. The pen always slipped and ruined it, right near the end. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethRDR Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Never spirograph without an exit strategy, that's spirographing 101. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 18, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 18, 2021 9 hours ago, fruitvilla said: if we believe in Einstein's theories then the Earth is moving in a straight line and that it is space that is curved....things like our GPSs use Einstein's theories to get it to work. I'm not sure that the GPS aspect is quite right. I'll jump to a TL:DR - whether the collective of the earth plus GPS satellites is travelling in a straight line out to the edge of an ever expanding universe, or is as a whole rotating around the sun is neither here nor there. Longer version: GPS doesn't (afaik - and I do/have worked with GPS in my job, to an extent) do or use anything based on the Earth moving in a straight line or orbiting the Sun. In fact the opposite is the case, as I understand it. GPS works based on time - very accurate time and ephemerides. GPS satellites are not geo-stationary, they rotate (orbit, you might say) around the earth, each coming into the field of view of a GPS receiver for a period of time before disappearing beneath the horizon as they orbit the earth. The ephemerides are kind of "which satellites will be visible, and when" from where you are. Atomic clocks are used both on the ground and in the satellites, keeping incredibly accurate time - they're all using the same reference - which is necessary because the GPS signal travels at the speed of light, and GPS works off (sophisticated) triangulation, ideally from 5 satellites at any one time. The GPS receiver calculates distance (from satellites) based on time and thus can calculate position against a geodetic reference model (e.g. WGS 84, ED50 etc.). There is a tiny time compensation involved because time (and this is where it gets mind blowing) is affected by gravity - thus the clock(s) on earth go slightly slower than those on the satellites, and I think that's maybe where the Einstein thing comes in... but anyway, because GPS is only of use for earth based (including aviation - my field of involvement with it) navigation, it is kind of self contained to the model of the earth and the orbiting satellites - whether that collective is travelling in a straight line out to the edge of an ever expanding universe, or is as a whole rotating around the sun is neither here nor there. Happy to be corrected, but that's my understanding, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Watch Mars Rover Landing Live later today... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Damn ... Too eager to jump into that vid and didn't read the "later today bit". Move you lazy rover git. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 3 hours ago, blandy said: I'm not sure that the GPS aspect is quite right. I'll jump to a TL:DR - whether the collective of the earth plus GPS satellites is travelling in a straight line out to the edge of an ever expanding universe, or is as a whole rotating around the sun is neither here nor there. Longer version: GPS doesn't (afaik - and I do/have worked with GPS in my job, to an extent) do or use anything based on the Earth moving in a straight line or orbiting the Sun. In fact the opposite is the case, as I understand it. GPS works based on time - very accurate time and ephemerides. GPS satellites are not geo-stationary, they rotate (orbit, you might say) around the earth, each coming into the field of view of a GPS receiver for a period of time before disappearing beneath the horizon as they orbit the earth. The ephemerides are kind of "which satellites will be visible, and when" from where you are. Atomic clocks are used both on the ground and in the satellites, keeping incredibly accurate time - they're all using the same reference - which is necessary because the GPS signal travels at the speed of light, and GPS works off (sophisticated) triangulation, ideally from 5 satellites at any one time. The GPS receiver calculates distance (from satellites) based on time and thus can calculate position against a geodetic reference model (e.g. WGS 84, ED50 etc.). There is a tiny time compensation involved because time (and this is where it gets mind blowing) is affected by gravity - thus the clock(s) on earth go slightly slower than those on the satellites, and I think that's maybe where the Einstein thing comes in... but anyway, because GPS is only of use for earth based (including aviation - my field of involvement with it) navigation, it is kind of self contained to the model of the earth and the orbiting satellites - whether that collective is travelling in a straight line out to the edge of an ever expanding universe, or is as a whole rotating around the sun is neither here nor there. Happy to be corrected, but that's my understanding, anyway. Yup, clocks run at different rates when measured from differing positions in potential wells (e.g., ground vs satellite) due to the GR curved nature of spacetime. The curvature and direction of travel are not necessarily the same thing, e.g., a rocket can easily expend energy to give a hearty finger to the curvature and go where it pleases. Of course the level of curvature sets the cost, e.g., earth vs moon vs mars. Absent GR, we would not be able to get GPS to work as the satellite positions could not be predicted correctly with newtonian gravity alone. Well, they probably could with some crazy set of fudge fixes, but it would be much harder. The earth is gravitationally bound to the sun, and the entire system is bound in our galaxy. What the Universe is doing is essentially irrelevant on these scales. There is no observational evidence that GR is not the correct description of reality, but our inability to get GR & QM to play nice, coupled with the dark energy and dark matter phenomena suggest there is still much to be revealed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 3 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Watch Mars Rover Landing Live later today... Allegedly happening near 4pm Eastern (9pm UK). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 12 minutes ago, villakram said: Allegedly happening near 4pm Eastern (9pm UK). I’ll be watching out to see if they use the same rocks they used on the moon walk. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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