Science Thread

[chrisp65]

There’s been a decent solar flare, the upshot of which is it might be possible to see the northern lights from much of the UK tomorrow night.

Of course, it could be the trigger for a day of the triffids second half of 2021. But worth the risk of looking up if its clear tomorrow.

[bickster]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

There’s been a decent solar flare, the upshot of which is it might be possible to see the northern lights from much of the UK tomorrow night.

Of course, it could be the trigger for a day of the triffids second half of 2021. But worth the risk of looking up if its clear tomorrow.

Oh bollocks, that's just about a given now that it'll be as cloudy as hell here tomorrow.

There's an event in the night sky is nailed on cloud here.

[fruitvilla]

On 24/05/2021 at 09:18, villakram said:

All those green electric cars. Not so simple at all, e.g., what to do with the power packs, recycling?

Great write up on the current state of affairs via Science.

"To extract those needles, recyclers rely on two techniques, known as pyrometallurgy and hydrometallurgy. The more common is pyrometallurgy, in which recyclers first mechanically shred the cell and then burn it, leaving a charred mass of plastic, metals, and glues. At that point, they can use several methods to extract the metals, including further burning. “Pyromet is essentially treating the battery as if it were an ore” straight from a mine, Gaines says. Hydrometallurgy, in contrast, involves dunking battery materials in pools of acid, producing a metal-laden soup. Sometimes the two methods are combined."

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/05/millions-electric-cars-are-coming-what-happens-all-dead-batteries

Speaking as a chemist who has specialized  as a "hydrometallurgist" for the last forty odd years (in the mining industry), The primary issue, as I see it, is designing the battery casings so they are more easily recyclable, or even better reusable. Recovering the lithium is relatively straight forward. I can't imagine recovering the cobalt would be difficult either. 

I have had opportunity to be toured around the local lithium recycler (they recover lithium carbonate) from military grade batteries. The exciting bit is where they have to break up the batteries, especially if they have not been fully discharged. 

[fruitvilla]

Whilst we are at it ... sodium based batteries seem to be coming to the fore.

The batteries of the future: Sodium instead of lithium | Science| In-depth reporting on science and technology | DW | 27.08.2020

I don't see them being used in vehicles ... but perhaps in bicycles etc too heavy compared to lithium, but for stationary applications a definite maybe. Don't need cobalt.

Edited May 26, 2021 by fruitvilla

[villakram]

20 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

Speaking as a chemist who has specialized  as a "hydrometallurgist" for the last forty odd years (in the mining industry), The primary issue, as I see it, is designing the battery casings so they are more easily recyclable, or even better reusable. Recovering the lithium is relatively straight forward. I can't imagine recovering the cobalt would be difficult either. 

I have had opportunity to be toured around the local lithium recycler (they recover lithium carbonate) from military grade batteries. The exciting bit is where they have to break up the batteries, especially if they have not been fully discharged. 

Can you add anything regarding the waste products generated in this process. That appears to be a difficult challenge given the nature of both primary processes, and it's not clear how much longer we can just send this stuff off to our own poor communities or less well run countries.

Of course, the energy requirements are interesting too.  

[fruitvilla]

2 hours ago, villakram said:

Can you add anything regarding the waste products generated in this process.

Just looking at the wiki page about the battery chemistry, I noted that the are electrolytes can have some unpleasant anions. Fluoride in particular. I am not overly familiar with fluoroborates and fluorophosphates. I would have to look up how they are dealt with environmentally. The fluoride probably is converted to a relatively stable calcium fluoride and can/could be used to make the fluoride based electrolytes again.

Some of the electrolytes are simple organic molecules and are like dealt with pyrometallurgically. The scrap steels, other metals and plastics have to be dealt with. The plant I walked around was clean and well run. They don't say much but it is here and here. The thing I liked about the plant I walked through was it did not have any pyrometallurgy. It is some twenty years since I walked through, not long after it started up.

I would love to have a walk through again.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by fruitvilla

[A'Villan]

@fruitvilla So you're an alchemist? Hope you don't mind me putting it that way.

It always makes me glad to know that there are those of us who put to use the teachings offered us as youth beyond what was mandated. 

Not to sound airy-fairy about it, but it makes the world wonderful, to have those who pose questions and wonder, enough to pursue greater understanding.

[fruitvilla]

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

So you're an alchemist? Hope you don't mind me putting it that way.

There are advantages and disadvantages to seeing life through a chemist's eyes. I can admire the results of a person's chemistry, but criticizing a person's chemistry seems pointless. But that is for my philosophy thread.

[sne]

I've seen this movie, doesn't end well.

Quote

Ancient viruses dating back 15,000 years found in Tibetan glacier

Scientists have discovered previously unknown viruses dating from 15,000 years ago in ice samples taken from a glacier in the Tibetan plateau.

The viruses are unlike any that have been cataloged by scientists before, according to a study published earlier this week in the journal Microbiome.

A team including climate scientists and microbiologists from Ohio State University took two ice cores from the summit of the Guliya ice cap, at 22,000 feet above sea level, in western China in 2015.

The ice core was 1,017 feet deep, the study's lead author, microbiologist Zhiping Zhong, told CNN on Thursday. It was then cut into sections three feet long and four inches in diameter.

Glaciers are melting much faster than expected, study finds

The team then analyzed the ice and found 33 viruses, at least 28 of which were previously unknown to science and had survived because they were frozen.

The viruses likely originated with soil or plants, rather than with humans or animals, and would have been adapted to extreme conditions, according to the study. They would not be harmful to humans, the researchers told CNN.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/23/asia/climate-ancient-viruses-glacier-scli-intl-scn/index.html

[A'Villan]

Thoughts?

[mjmooney]

8 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

Thoughts?

Absolutely correct. 

[fruitvilla]

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

Thoughts?

Speaking as a scientist, this is a bit over the top.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

Thoughts?

But there is a chance you aren’t wrong when you disagree with scientists.

Unless we’re saying they have already discovered all truths… and might change its opinion. They can only really have one or the other of those two.

Until recently, science suggested keeping someone sedated for longer was a good thing. You may have disagreed with that and felt people should be brought out of coma as early as possible. Science would now agree with you. So you weren’t wrong.

[villakram]

1 minute ago, chrisp65 said:

But there is a chance you aren’t wrong when you disagree with scientists.

Unless we’re saying they have already discovered all truths… and might change its opinion. They can only really have one or the other of those two.

Until recently, science suggested keeping someone sedated for longer was a good thing. You may have disagreed with that and felt people should be brought out of coma as early as possible. Science would now agree with you. So you weren’t wrong.

One of the most poisonous ideas to come from the covid crisis. Trust the science, believe the science.... ye gods!

[mjmooney]

12 minutes ago, villakram said:

One of the most poisonous ideas to come from the covid crisis. Trust the science, believe the science.... ye gods!

What would you suggest as an alternative? 

[fruitvilla]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

What would you suggest as an alternative? 

I can't speak for Villakram, but I am thinking along the lines of: ignore the evidence, prayer, going to really dubious websites and not a small hint of Dunning-Kruger.

Edited September 20, 2021 by fruitvilla

[A'Villan]

58 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

What would you suggest as an alternative? 

To have a scrupulous and discerning mind. Which also means knowing when we don't know, and to be at peace with that, until we do.

The World Health Organisation's roots are found entrenched in Rockefeller territory. The Rockefeller's that created the World Trade Centers. The Rockefeller's who own the land on which Rockefeller Avenue sits, and NBC the crown jewel of media coverage resides.

Einstein apparently once said, and whether it's his quote or not it resonates deeply with me, "Most people say that it is the intellect that makes a great scientist. They are wrong, it is character."

I wonder, if we are meant to trust that it came from bats in a market, and then the script changes to Biden wanting investigation into the Wuhan lab, which was known for pathogen creation. To what degree can we trust the science?

When it is riddled plagued to the core by espionage, sabotage and corruption?

Edited September 20, 2021 by A'Villan

[A'Villan]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

But there is a chance you aren’t wrong when you disagree with scientists.

Unless we’re saying they have already discovered all truths… and might change its opinion. They can only really have one or the other of those two.

Until recently, science suggested keeping someone sedated for longer was a good thing. You may have disagreed with that and felt people should be brought out of coma as early as possible. Science would now agree with you. So you weren’t wrong.

I took it to mean that one cannot disagree with a scientist, and any attempts to are a wrongdoing, on the basis that science is a search for truth, as opposed to being a finality that professes to know all, and therefore scientists are pure and faultless as they never claimed the whole truth to begin with.

Edited September 20, 2021 by A'Villan

[A'Villan]

1 hour ago, fruitvilla said:

Speaking as a scientist, this is a bit over the top.

I agree. I love anybody who operates with a level of integrity and modesty in their profession, or level of knowledge, skillset etc. and that includes the acknowledgement of being mistaken, lacking in an area, or being fallible. 

I find the quote that I posted to be on the side of condescending and even arrogant, but that's just me.

I think a lot of people are scientists at one stage or another in their life @fruitvilla, but at a guess, you mean to say that is your trade and you specialise in one of the 'natural' sciences? Or have I missed the mark?

[chrisp65]

7 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

I took it to mean that one cannot disagree with a scientist, and any attempts to are a wrongdoing, on the basis that science is a search for truth, as opposed to being a finality that professes to know all, and therefore scientists are pure and faultless as they never claimed the whole truth to begin with.

I took it more literal than that.

Why can only scientists disagree with scientists without being wrong?

Who decides what a scientist is and how can I become one so I can disagree and not be wrong?

Can a scientist with a different specialism disagree and not automatically be wrong, or can you disagree on any subject once you are a scientist in one area?

Why would I have less legitimacy than a biologist when suggesting a nuclear scientist was wrong?