VillaCas Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 I really wanted Lambert to do well here. I really thought Lambert would do well here. I bought into the "young and hungry" philosophy, and at time have been quite proud of it. But it doesn't work. The players aren't learning quick enough, they're not developing quick enough, and quite frankly, buying "young and hungry" players just doesn't work. Every club would be doing it if it did. I was all for getting rid of Ireland, Dunne, Collins, Bent, Warnock, Hutton etc.... but with the hope that the players brought in would be better than them. But they're not. Benteke aside, none of the players Lambert has bought in are better than the players they have replaced. The sooner both Lambert and Lerner piss off the better. I can accept not winning games if we were entertaining to watch. Afterall, football is supposed to be entertainment... isn't it? There's nothing entertaining about going to Villa Park. It's a lot of money to spend to watch complete and utter shite. I'm really not bothered about going to Villa Park now. I'd rather just stay in the pub. Watching this "football" is just awful. Seriously cant put 3 passes together, it's depressing. 4 years on the bounce now we've been absolutely awful to watch, I wonder why I bother paying the £500 for a season ticket just to be bored. The sad thing is, the way Lerner is now running the club i really don't believe we could find a better manager then Lambert. They cost less than 50% of the players they replaced, they earn 25% of the players they replaced and yet they have delivered better points total and a better league position. good points cas , statistics that aren't often used but equally relevant Yes I seem to remember those statistics being used several games ago and they were rightly quashed for not being a constant. We are now better off by what, one point with our 'easy run' of fixtures coming to an end. Interesting to see how that statistic fairs over the next set of fixtures? What on earth are you on about this time? It's in the record books, so yes it is a "constant" Lambert's first season delivered a better league postion and more points than McLeish, utilising a squad that cost 50% of McL's and earn 25% Yet both were only able to secure our Premiership safety with one game to go and that's after Lambert spunking millions on making our squad worse. I was referring to our placement and number of points this season which was heralded by you and others as a yardstick for improvement but you knew that anyway. You come up with some crazy stuff The improvement in points earnt I talked about at the start of the season was genuine improvement - more points from games played, more points from like-for-like fixtures...no smoke and mirrors there just hard facts. You moan about well-founded stats that I use and then come up with this??? So the only stat that matters is not points gained in a season, it's number of games left beforre safety is guaranteed.ermmm ok.....you really are clutching at straws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Bacunas quick Kev, he dropped him, Bennetts quick enough hes dropped. Hes cut off his nose too often .You could argue Ireland, Sidwell, Dunne, Collins, Bent, would walk into our team atm, and Cuellar Warnock and Hutton would'nt make us much worse either. PL has been here 18 months, hes bought how many players, if theres a problem, its a problem he has created. Bacuna you may of notice wasnt dropped he played yesterday. Bennett's been injured all season and is still injured Bent can't walk into Fulhams shite side nor can Cuellar get into Sunderland's shite side Ireland had numerous chances and wasted them all, Sidwell went under Houillier?? Warnock and Hutton were utter utter crap. Warnock can't get into a Championship side and no-one in their right mind will take Hutton, even on loan Dunne and Collins cost £100k+ a week in wages. Dunne was even more injury prone than Vlaar. Collins attitude was rightly questioned and I for one am delighted he has left my club None of the players you mention have gone on to be successful elsewhere Garbage Which Lambert signings have been better than those previously at the club this season? Not the point I was responding to......but better than the dross before at less than half the cost and less than a quarter of the wages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjw63 Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Stick with him. Don't want any old no mark to take us down. Hopefully scrape our way out of trouble this year and slowly rebuild. Exactly the reason I've had enough of this crap. Scrape our way out of trouble? I thought we did that last year. And the year before. How many more times have I got to shell out hundreds of pounds to see us "scrape our way out of trouble"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Fulham who beat us, Sland who will probably beat us.I know you support PL Cas, thats fine, yes i was'nt disappointed with them players going, but the current crop imho are worse. and yet they did better last season than the much higher costing and paid team of the season before.....go figure No they didn't and this has been continually pointed out to you. Sorry I was just going on more points and a better league position than McL's team on half the cost and quarter of the wages.............tell me again, what stat is it you think should replace league tables and points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 I was disheartened by his 606 interview after the game last night, He said something along the lines of "Villa are a massive club, but this is built on what happened in the past." He also responded to a question about the 27% possession by asking the interviewer what the score was and stating that it's the number of goals that count. I'm concerned that he is trying to manage everyone's expectations to "as long we finish 17th at worst things will be fine". His tactical ability has really been shown up this season. What I don't understand is why a midfield with Westwood and KEA in it struggles to pass. When we signed KEA didn't he have one of the best pass completion rates in the Eredivisie? Slower league I know but we are struggling with the basics. I get the impression that Lambert just wants our defenders to lump it to the strikers, bypassing the midfield and putting us straight back under pressure. After the end of last season there is no justification for the terrible football we are playing at the moment. It's like we aren't even trying to play the game. Pass completion is not "the basics" - in the dutch league you will look like your good because you will have time, in the Premiership you will get no time. Posters keep saying we just need "stick to the basics"and "pass and move" - like it's the easiest thing in the world. If it were, you'd think that most managers would have worked that out by now You play if you are allowed to or if you are better than your opponent - £10k a week players are unlikely to be better than £50k a week players Personally, that we are competitive at all on the budget we have is an acheivement (please don't quote the £40m figure again - we have lost players that cost £80m and are working with a circa £60m squad against £120-£350m squads. In any case it's be clearly proven that performance correlates to wages not to fees) 10k a week players eh? How much is Benteke, Gabby, Weimann, Vlaar and Guzan earning? At the other end of the spectrum how much has Hughes had to spend at Stoke for example while at the same time changing their style of play? Would you say that the players at Palace are earning more than our players Bannan included? Would you say the players at Hull are earning more than those at Fulham or indeed our players? The difference is in the way they are being organised and coached and that comes down to the manager! Bacuna, Tonev, Westwood, Lowton, Luna, Clark and Baker If you don't want to understand that wages = performance that's up to you No I understand fine that wages doesn't necessarily equate to performance and I've given you examples of that which you have chosen to ignore, again. It's simple enough to find an odd example that bucks the trend but generally in football, like in life better performers get paid better http://www.squawka.com/news/2013/07/09/value-index-part-1/2013070912877 http://www.econ.tcu.edu/harvey/blog/Salary_Performance_Causality.pdf http://dr.library.brocku.ca/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10464/3997/Brock_Fullard_Jonathan_2012.pdf?sequence=1 Boom! Didn't refer to your examples as you have yet again failed to answer my question so I will ask it again. Are the players of Palace, Stoke, Hull, WBA, on significantly more wages than our players and I'll spell it out for you. The reason why I ask is that they are currently playing better football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morley_crosses_to_Withe Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Stoke are also a prime example of why changing manager can bring about a reverse in fortunes. Palace get rid of their clueless twunt and replace him for Pullis. Now look at them - they're winning games and could quite easily have gotten a draw at the Etihad. Same group of players; what's changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROTTERDAM1982 Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Seems to be a one man crusade here Cas.If you are happy with PLs team fine, i think we are shit atm, and i blame PL, i thought we was shit under McL, and i blamed MON and McL.I'm at the stage now that i am happy to finish half way in The Prem, i don't think PL is up to that, or that McL was. You can dress it up as much as you like, we arae an awful football team atm, and i just want to see some football after having none for 3/4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillakevBromsgrove Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 They are playing better football granted but as results go they aint no better than us and when they invariably loose a couple of players with injuries and suspensions will probably fair worse.We have cut back to the bare bones and have suffered numerous injuries and suspensions, hopefully things will improve, I am not saying they will but hoping. If we can survive this season as stated then we will move on and should be in alot better position next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 I was disheartened by his 606 interview after the game last night, He said something along the lines of "Villa are a massive club, but this is built on what happened in the past." He also responded to a question about the 27% possession by asking the interviewer what the score was and stating that it's the number of goals that count. I'm concerned that he is trying to manage everyone's expectations to "as long we finish 17th at worst things will be fine". His tactical ability has really been shown up this season. What I don't understand is why a midfield with Westwood and KEA in it struggles to pass. When we signed KEA didn't he have one of the best pass completion rates in the Eredivisie? Slower league I know but we are struggling with the basics. I get the impression that Lambert just wants our defenders to lump it to the strikers, bypassing the midfield and putting us straight back under pressure. After the end of last season there is no justification for the terrible football we are playing at the moment. It's like we aren't even trying to play the game. Pass completion is not "the basics" - in the dutch league you will look like your good because you will have time, in the Premiership you will get no time. Posters keep saying we just need "stick to the basics"and "pass and move" - like it's the easiest thing in the world. If it were, you'd think that most managers would have worked that out by now You play if you are allowed to or if you are better than your opponent - £10k a week players are unlikely to be better than £50k a week players Personally, that we are competitive at all on the budget we have is an acheivement (please don't quote the £40m figure again - we have lost players that cost £80m and are working with a circa £60m squad against £120-£350m squads. In any case it's be clearly proven that performance correlates to wages not to fees) 10k a week players eh? How much is Benteke, Gabby, Weimann, Vlaar and Guzan earning? At the other end of the spectrum how much has Hughes had to spend at Stoke for example while at the same time changing their style of play? Would you say that the players at Palace are earning more than our players Bannan included? Would you say the players at Hull are earning more than those at Fulham or indeed our players? The difference is in the way they are being organised and coached and that comes down to the manager! Bacuna, Tonev, Westwood, Lowton, Luna, Clark and Baker If you don't want to understand that wages = performance that's up to you No I understand fine that wages doesn't necessarily equate to performance and I've given you examples of that which you have chosen to ignore, again. It's simple enough to find an odd example that bucks the trend but generally in football, like in life better performers get paid better http://www.squawka.com/news/2013/07/09/value-index-part-1/2013070912877 http://www.econ.tcu.edu/harvey/blog/Salary_Performance_Causality.pdf http://dr.library.brocku.ca/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10464/3997/Brock_Fullard_Jonathan_2012.pdf?sequence=1 Boom! Didn't refer to your examples as you have yet again failed to answer my question so I will ask it again. Are the players of Palace, Stoke, Hull, WBA, on significantly more wages than our players and I'll spell it out for you. The reason why I ask is that they are currently playing better football. You should read the links, you'd probably learn something Of the clubs you mention I would think Palace probably are paying similar to us - the other teams probably more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillakevBromsgrove Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Stoke and numerous clubs are just making up the table along with us. We all go through good and bad runs and will pretty much all end up either relegated or a few points above. It is a merry go round. We needed to change and move on to the next level. Maybe PL can do this or maybe not time will tell. we should at least though give him till the end of the season to prove his philosophy is not doomed rather than start all over again as we and other clubs keep doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted December 29, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted December 29, 2013 Back him till the end of the season, like the majority of the 36000 or so fans who turned up yesterday. FWIW I think he will walk before he's sacked, isn't his two years contract up this summer? The players panic when they went one up was strange, the ground went quiet as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Seems to be a one man crusade here Cas.If you are happy with PLs team fine, i think we are shit atm, and i blame PL, i thought we was shit under McL, and i blamed MON and McL.I'm at the stage now that i am happy to finish half way in The Prem, i don't think PL is up to that, or that McL was. You can dress it up as much as you like, we arae an awful football team atm, and i just want to see some football after having none for 3/4 years. Just trying to balance out the argument, I didnt lobby for PL to come here but now he is I want to see him given time and see what can be achieved with decent/average resources. I see nothing to be gained by changing manager No I'm not happy with PLs side, I also think we're a bit shit but I blame Lerner Finishing halfway in the prem would be an achievment given the resources deployed so far http://www.squawka.com/news/2013/07/09/value-index-part-1/2013070912877 You either think this is true or you don't - if you don't then I can understand why you would imagine that all of a sudden you can start knockingthe ball around like Barcelona 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Bacunas quick Kev, he dropped him, Bennetts quick enough hes dropped. Hes cut off his nose too often .You could argue Ireland, Sidwell, Dunne, Collins, Bent, would walk into our team atm, and Cuellar Warnock and Hutton would'nt make us much worse either. PL has been here 18 months, hes bought how many players, if theres a problem, its a problem he has created. Bacuna you may of notice wasnt dropped he played yesterday. Bennett's been injured all season and is still injured Bent can't walk into Fulhams shite side nor can Cuellar get into Sunderland's shite side Ireland had numerous chances and wasted them all, Sidwell went under Houillier?? Warnock and Hutton were utter utter crap. Warnock can't get into a Championship side and no-one in their right mind will take Hutton, even on loan Dunne and Collins cost £100k+ a week in wages. Dunne was even more injury prone than Vlaar. Collins attitude was rightly questioned and I for one am delighted he has left my club None of the players you mention have gone on to be successful elsewhere Garbage Which Lambert signings have been better than those previously at the club this season? Not the point I was responding to......but better than the dross before at less than half the cost and less than a quarter of the wages So really can't use specifics to answer the question which isn't surprising since there aren't any of Lambert's signings which are out performing those that were already here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 (edited) I think Lambert is now playing a very dangerous game. Publically at least he is setting the bar very low. Both on the pitch after the game and in interviews he genuinely seemed really pleased that we had just achieved a draw at home against a Swansea side in poor form and one point above us. A draw that was achieved with some of the most negative football I have seen since we played Utd at home under McLeish. He has stated that we are halfway there - halfway to 40 points. He has stated we are struggling because we are missing big players and included in that list Joe Bennett. Missing Vlaar, Benteke, Bennett and Okore as an excuse for the utter tripe we have been serving up for months is an insult to peoples intelligence. We have been serving up tripe since way before Vlaar and Benteke were injured. I'd accept we secured a few more points but the performances have been very poor for most of the season. Injuries are also part and parcel of the game. It should also be remembered that three of the so called big players missing are defenders and for me it is offensively where we simply cannot retain possession where were are really struggling. Things need to improve and improve quickly starting at Sunderland on Wednesday. I don't want to see Lambert sacked but he is drinking in last chance saloon for me now. I want him to prove that I was right to want him to replace both Houllier and McLeish and to start repaying the faith thousands of us fans have shown in him. He has had way more grace and favor given the crap served up than any Villa manager I can remember and he needs to embrace what little is left and get his team playing in a more positive manner. It would also help if he stopped setting the bar so low and demanded more of his team and from the owner. Lerner will need to play his part and back his manager and with that backing Lambert needs to bring in two or three players, whether permanent or loans, of proven quality and a bit of nous at this level. No more young, hungry and hopefully one day good enough bollocks. It simply isn't working. To those that want him out now though I can't argue with that. He is on borrowed time with me and it is little more than blind faith and a fear of who the owner would choose to follow him that hasn't got me screaming for his head. Edited December 29, 2013 by markavfc40 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 (edited) I was disheartened by his 606 interview after the game last night, He said something along the lines of "Villa are a massive club, but this is built on what happened in the past." He also responded to a question about the 27% possession by asking the interviewer what the score was and stating that it's the number of goals that count. I'm concerned that he is trying to manage everyone's expectations to "as long we finish 17th at worst things will be fine". His tactical ability has really been shown up this season. What I don't understand is why a midfield with Westwood and KEA in it struggles to pass. When we signed KEA didn't he have one of the best pass completion rates in the Eredivisie? Slower league I know but we are struggling with the basics. I get the impression that Lambert just wants our defenders to lump it to the strikers, bypassing the midfield and putting us straight back under pressure. After the end of last season there is no justification for the terrible football we are playing at the moment. It's like we aren't even trying to play the game. Pass completion is not "the basics" - in the dutch league you will look like your good because you will have time, in the Premiership you will get no time. Posters keep saying we just need "stick to the basics"and "pass and move" - like it's the easiest thing in the world. If it were, you'd think that most managers would have worked that out by now You play if you are allowed to or if you are better than your opponent - £10k a week players are unlikely to be better than £50k a week players Personally, that we are competitive at all on the budget we have is an acheivement (please don't quote the £40m figure again - we have lost players that cost £80m and are working with a circa £60m squad against £120-£350m squads. In any case it's be clearly proven that performance correlates to wages not to fees) 10k a week players eh? How much is Benteke, Gabby, Weimann, Vlaar and Guzan earning? At the other end of the spectrum how much has Hughes had to spend at Stoke for example while at the same time changing their style of play? Would you say that the players at Palace are earning more than our players Bannan included? Would you say the players at Hull are earning more than those at Fulham or indeed our players? The difference is in the way they are being organised and coached and that comes down to the manager! Bacuna, Tonev, Westwood, Lowton, Luna, Clark and Baker If you don't want to understand that wages = performance that's up to you No I understand fine that wages doesn't necessarily equate to performance and I've given you examples of that which you have chosen to ignore, again. It's simple enough to find an odd example that bucks the trend but generally in football, like in life better performers get paid better http://www.squawka.com/news/2013/07/09/value-index-part-1/2013070912877 http://www.econ.tcu.edu/harvey/blog/Salary_Performance_Causality.pdf http://dr.library.brocku.ca/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10464/3997/Brock_Fullard_Jonathan_2012.pdf?sequence=1 Boom! Didn't refer to your examples as you have yet again failed to answer my question so I will ask it again. Are the players of Palace, Stoke, Hull, WBA, on significantly more wages than our players and I'll spell it out for you. The reason why I ask is that they are currently playing better football. You should read the links, you'd probably learn something Of the clubs you mention I would think Palace probably are paying similar to us - the other teams probably more So you think Stoke, Hull and West Brom are paying significantly more in wages in comparison to us. Ha, ha. We'll have to disagree then. Edit. I don't need to read your links to challenge your point. Edited December 29, 2013 by Morpheus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Stoke are also a prime example of why changing manager can bring about a reverse in fortunes. Palace get rid of their clueless twunt and replace him for Pullis. Now look at them - they're winning games and could quite easily have gotten a draw at the Etihad. Same group of players; what's changed? Pretty much this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Seems to be a one man crusade here Cas.If you are happy with PLs team fine, i think we are shit atm, and i blame PL, i thought we was shit under McL, and i blamed MON and McL.I'm at the stage now that i am happy to finish half way in The Prem, i don't think PL is up to that, or that McL was. You can dress it up as much as you like, we arae an awful football team atm, and i just want to see some football after having none for 3/4 years.not a one man crusade, just the arguments keep coming back are the same....less of a debate, more of a repeating of the same arguments and getting nowhere so I got bored and backed out of the argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffy Biro Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Stoke are also a prime example of why changing manager can bring about a reverse in fortunes. Palace get rid of their clueless twunt and replace him for Pullis. Now look at them - they're winning games and could quite easily have gotten a draw at the Etihad. Same group of players; what's changed? Pulis can organise, setup and motivate a team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Seems to be a one man crusade here Cas.If you are happy with PLs team fine, i think we are shit atm, and i blame PL, i thought we was shit under McL, and i blamed MON and McL.I'm at the stage now that i am happy to finish half way in The Prem, i don't think PL is up to that, or that McL was. You can dress it up as much as you like, we arae an awful football team atm, and i just want to see some football after having none for 3/4 years. Just trying to balance out the argument, I didnt lobby for PL to come here but now he is I want to see him given time and see what can be achieved with decent/average resources. I see nothing to be gained by changing manager No I'm not happy with PLs side, I also think we're a bit shit but I blame Lerner Finishing halfway in the prem would be an achievment given the resources deployed so far http://www.squawka.com/news/2013/07/09/value-index-part-1/2013070912877 You either think this is true or you don't - if you don't then I can understand why you would imagine that all of a sudden you can start knockingthe ball around like Barcelona Ha, ha. You go from one extreme to the other mate to try and prove a point. No-one expects the same performance level as Barca but they do expect to see better than the drivel Lambert has got the team playing for three quarters of last season and the majority of this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 I was disheartened by his 606 interview after the game last night, He said something along the lines of "Villa are a massive club, but this is built on what happened in the past." He also responded to a question about the 27% possession by asking the interviewer what the score was and stating that it's the number of goals that count. I'm concerned that he is trying to manage everyone's expectations to "as long we finish 17th at worst things will be fine". His tactical ability has really been shown up this season. What I don't understand is why a midfield with Westwood and KEA in it struggles to pass. When we signed KEA didn't he have one of the best pass completion rates in the Eredivisie? Slower league I know but we are struggling with the basics. I get the impression that Lambert just wants our defenders to lump it to the strikers, bypassing the midfield and putting us straight back under pressure. After the end of last season there is no justification for the terrible football we are playing at the moment. It's like we aren't even trying to play the game. Pass completion is not "the basics" - in the dutch league you will look like your good because you will have time, in the Premiership you will get no time. Posters keep saying we just need "stick to the basics"and "pass and move" - like it's the easiest thing in the world. If it were, you'd think that most managers would have worked that out by now You play if you are allowed to or if you are better than your opponent - £10k a week players are unlikely to be better than £50k a week players Personally, that we are competitive at all on the budget we have is an acheivement (please don't quote the £40m figure again - we have lost players that cost £80m and are working with a circa £60m squad against £120-£350m squads. In any case it's be clearly proven that performance correlates to wages not to fees) 10k a week players eh? How much is Benteke, Gabby, Weimann, Vlaar and Guzan earning? At the other end of the spectrum how much has Hughes had to spend at Stoke for example while at the same time changing their style of play? Would you say that the players at Palace are earning more than our players Bannan included? Would you say the players at Hull are earning more than those at Fulham or indeed our players? The difference is in the way they are being organised and coached and that comes down to the manager! Bacuna, Tonev, Westwood, Lowton, Luna, Clark and Baker If you don't want to understand that wages = performance that's up to you No I understand fine that wages doesn't necessarily equate to performance and I've given you examples of that which you have chosen to ignore, again. It's simple enough to find an odd example that bucks the trend but generally in football, like in life better performers get paid better http://www.squawka.com/news/2013/07/09/value-index-part-1/2013070912877 http://www.econ.tcu.edu/harvey/blog/Salary_Performance_Causality.pdf http://dr.library.brocku.ca/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10464/3997/Brock_Fullard_Jonathan_2012.pdf?sequence=1 Boom! Didn't refer to your examples as you have yet again failed to answer my question so I will ask it again. Are the players of Palace, Stoke, Hull, WBA, on significantly more wages than our players and I'll spell it out for you. The reason why I ask is that they are currently playing better football. You should read the links, you'd probably learn something Of the clubs you mention I would think Palace probably are paying similar to us - the other teams probably more So you think Stoke, Hull and West Brom are paying significantly more in wages in comparison to us. Ha, ha. We'll have to disagree then. You are saying significantly more, I just said more But take a look at the links I posted and you will see that in 11/12 we were paying slightly more than Stoke Fulham and WBA and since then we have slashed the wages bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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