AndyBM Posted September 22, 2013 Share Posted September 22, 2013 i respect your view in this and the opinion of others (although it is a shame that a large majority of people on villatalk dont) but as another point has just been has just been mentioned, atmosphere of old, that is also in the past, making people stand will make no difference at all, villa cant even fill the stadium being seated, so taking away some seats to potentially increase capacity and improve 'atmosphere' will make no difference at all, its all in the head of the season ticket holder, its not going to entice more people to attend funny how nobody has mentioned hillsborough yet? but maybe thats because everyone who has posted in this thread is for standing and of course, hillsborough would be a case for against? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted September 22, 2013 Administrator Share Posted September 22, 2013 How do you think Hillsborough is relevant to the discussion? No-one is suggesting a return to terraces, this is a call for safe standing areas. The Taylor report said that "spectators will become accustomed and educated to sitting". See any away end to see how wrong that prediction was. It's more dangerous to stand in seated areas than to stand in areas designed for standing safely. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canarykiller Posted September 22, 2013 Author Share Posted September 22, 2013 I wouldn't campaign to get the terraces of old back. The new arrangements are nothing like that.safe standing consists of rail seating, which is like standing at your seat but safer. I am not looking back misty eyed, I know the terraces were dangerous. I used to think it was hilarious when I got carried 20 yards from where I started when We scored, or knocked myself out for a moment on a barrier and ended up on the floor, untilthe day when 96 football fans didn't come home, and I realised then that the had been times when that could have been me. When you say it is in the past, you are ignoring the fact that thousands of football supporters stand every week, but they do so in an unsafe way. When Matty Lowton scored that screamer at Stoke last season, people went over 3 rows of seats. There weren't any serious injuries, but there were injuries. Rail seating (safe standing) would have prevented this. The rail is high enough to stop people toppling overthe rows. The rows are only one seat apart anyway, the spaces are ticketed in the same way as seats to prevent overcrowding. There is no possibility of a 'Hillsborough' type tragedy, in fact the potential for injury is reduced. I did used to love being able to just find my mates when I got there, but there are good reasons why this will not be returning. Similarly, untill whole stands are rebuilt, we won't be getting any more people in, because the even if the spectator are holds more people, the concourses don't, and we won't have enough exits, or toilets. The improved atmosphere comes in the same way as it does now, when fans stand they are somehow more involved. I don't even know why that is, but it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KjParton Posted September 22, 2013 Share Posted September 22, 2013 i respect your view in this and the opinion of others (although it is a shame that a large majority of people on villatalk dont) but as another point has just been has just been mentioned, atmosphere of old, that is also in the past, making people stand will make no difference at all, villa cant even fill the stadium being seated, so taking away some seats to potentially increase capacity and improve 'atmosphere' will make no difference at all, its all in the head of the season ticket holder, its not going to entice more people to attend funny how nobody has mentioned hillsborough yet? but maybe thats because everyone who has posted in this thread is for standing and of course, hillsborough would be a case for against? I still think you're missing the point here. 1.) No one is making people stand it will always be a personal CHOICE 2.) No one is saying people standing is going to fill the stadium, however, it is widely proven that when you're standing up you're more likely to start singing and chanting (You'll know this if you've been to a Villa away game) 3.) Hillsborough is irrelevant, we're not going back to terraces. Terraces were dangerous. This is called SAFE-standing for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djamfisher Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 (edited) How does an incident in which coppers opened gates to let any Tom, Dick and Harry without tickets that led to a mass crush on terracing got to do with a discussion on safe standing. The new safe standing will mean people will require tickets to enter the ground. The safe standing will only be certain sections ofthe group so peopel can still sit, Safe standing will not increase the chances of a Hillborough happening, due to people having designated spaces to sit/stand. I.e. their tickets, and the capacity of said sections wil lbe regulated through H & S. Anyway as a paying customer, with no one sitting behind me I have the right to stand if i want. Edited September 23, 2013 by djamfisher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Season ticket in the Holte but I booked my ticket for tomorrow's match in the North purely for the luxury of standing. being able to stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post canarykiller Posted September 29, 2013 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hope you enjoyed doing the Posnan down there yesterday Wainey! Just popping back for a quick update. The online survey is now around 440 strong, and I had another great response in The Holte Suite yesterday. I think me and a helper got something around 150 - certainly well over 100. Alongside the 100 or so I got before Newcastle, I think we may even be nearly there! I'll probably keep the online survey for another few weeks, see if I can send some surveys out with the free coaches to Hull. Do some face to face surveys before Spurs, and then I think it'll be done. It is a bit of a landslide in favour of standing - Thank you to everyone for your support. I really hope that the club can do something with this 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) made it on the mail's website tonight - The claret and blue faithful are being asked if they want to take a stand... Supporters’ surveys are being carried out in an attempt to establish whether or not Villa fans would be in favour of a safe-standing area at Villa Park. The Birmingham Mail first revealed in January last year Villa’s plan to investigate the possibility of introducing a small trial standing section for about 250 fans where the front corner of the Holte End lower meets the Trinity Road stand. Now a questionnaire instigated by fans but supported by the club has been put together to determine if the demand to stand exists in B6. It follows a campaign by the Football Supporters’ Federation – a democratic group representing the rights of fans in England and Wales – to spark up a debate on standing at football matches. The FSF’s own studies in 2009 and 2011 revealed that nine in ten football fans want the choice to sit or stand at matches (more information is available at www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safe-standing ). Villa were the first Premier League club to publically and officially back the FSF’s safe-standing campaign, although five others have since followed suit – Cardiff, Crystal Palace, Hull, Sunderland and Swansea. Aston Villa - Villa Park In Scotland, Celtic last month announced they are keen to explore safe-standing areas at Parkhead after the SPLeague relaxed rules on all-seater stadia in December 2011. More stringent restrictions govern the English top tiers – the Premier League and the Championship – which must comply with all-seater legislation following the Taylor Report into the Hillsborough disaster in 1989. The topic of standing at football remains highly sensitive, particularly on Merseyside where the campaign for truth and justice goes on following the deaths of 96 innocent football fans. Those in favour of safe standing have a responsibility to proceed tactfully if they are to eventually achieve the FSF’s aim of persuading the Government, football authorities and clubs to accept the case for introducing, on a trial basis, limited sections of standing areas at selected grounds in the stadiums of Premier League and Championship clubs. At Villa, fans are being surveyed by fellow fans on matchdays around the ground and in nearby pubs and can also have their say by completing an online survey. If Villa can highlight strong support for safe standing at Villa Park, it is hoped other clubs will attempt to do likewise and slowly but surely the taboo will be broken and the debate will gather momentum. Villa’s canvassing started last month and, according to co-ordinators, the early response has been positive. The majority of supporters questioned so far are, in principle, in favour of safe standing. The purpose of the study is to ascertain the general level of backing or opposition for safe standing at Villa, and also to check if any particular fan demographic groups are put off by the idea of standing, as opposers often claim the presence of terraces would deter women and families. Aston Villa - Villa Park Villa, and the others in favour of the debate, are not talking about a return to the sprawling, open, standing ends like the old Holte End, but instead are eager to emulate the German model for safe standing. They say rail-seats, which have proved successful in the Bundesliga in terms of safety, atmosphere and ticket pricing, are more advisable than the current situation at grounds around this country most weeks. While all-seater stadia are compulsory in the Premier League, fans at matches routinely stand in seated areas – just not safely or legally – often causing friction with stewards trying to make them sit and other fans whose views are blocked. Safe-standing advocates question why Premier League fans are prohibited from standing when people regularly stand safely and trouble-free in large numbers at music gigs, other sporting events such as horse-racing and rugby, lower league football grounds and at matches in Germany, the USA and Canada. Villa’s support of safe standing has been championed by chief executive Paul Faulkner, who spoke at the FSF summit at St George’s Park in June. Their backing pre-dated Paul Lambert’s arrival, but the presence of a manager with a keen appreciation of fans’ culture in Germany has only strengthened the club’s interest in launching a trial area. The Holte End At Borussia Dortmund, the club with whom Lambert won the Champions League as a player, there are rail-seats, with safety barriers on each row and a seat that can be locked in an upright position to leave standing space, while at Bochum, a club Villa visited in pre-season, seats can be clipped on or off. In both cases the standing sections can be simply converted to seating areas for no-standing UEFA fixtures. The Birmingham Mail will be bringing you updates on this issue and the results of the consultation in the coming weeks and months. Villa fans keen to have their say on the idea of safe-standing at Villa Park can fill in the online survey at www.surveymonkey.com/s/5BSLL6G Edited October 8, 2013 by villa4europe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canarykiller Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 Apparently Matt Kendrick was trying to phone me yesterday, but unbelievably, I had left my phone at home! Anyway - he says he'll catch up with me in a few weeks for an update article. I was really pleased with what he has out together though & the online survey had leapt by another 100 by 5pm this evening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stockport_Villain Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I'm all for this. As a paying customer I should have a choice as to whether I stand or sit, just as I did pre-Hillsborough. On occasions I sat, but the majority of my time was spent standing on the Holte End. As has been mentioned quite often in this thread the Safer Standing will ensure there are no repeats of tragedies in the past but it will allow customers to make a choice. Let Villa put it in a see what happens. People will make a choice and it will soon become apparent whether or not it is worth expanding. I think I know what the outcome will be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Absolute madness that there is currently none. Glastonbury ? Thousands standing, drinking, dancing, at night too. Test Match ? Ditto Almost any Champions League game from across Europe ? All standing. Most Clubs fans at away games ? Standing . Cup Final - nearly everyone standing. Bonfire night displays - nighttime,explosives, beer, children, darkness - all standing. Home fans at football - thrown out for standing !! Absolutely ludicrous, not only should we have 'safe standing' there should be proper open terracing for those who choose to use it - then we can solve the biggest problem with attending a game - getting stuck next to some moaning bstd!! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supernova26 Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) I don't think standing is permitted in the Champions League...don't Dortmund have to reduce their capacity and use seats instead of the standing rails? (not that it stops them from standing). It's a long road this especially with the 96 Hillsborough brigade but even they if they are logical about it have to concede to the overwhelming argument for safe standing. I'm not sure who has the ultimate decision on this but it would be in the Premier Leagues interests to improve the atmosphere at games. Some of the matches come across really dull on TV due to the poor atmosphere. Celtic are due to introduce a safe standing area the laws in Scotland were relaxed 2 years ago. Edited October 9, 2013 by supernova26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan_007 Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I've picked up more injuries standing at away games with seats than I ever did standing in the holte. Love it to come back and I'm all for it. As a country we seem to ignore that fact that it works in Germany and has done for a long time. Does anybody actually know how long they've had safe standing abroad?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannockVillan Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I agree wholeheartedly with a safe standing area even tho I prefer to sit myself. I think the atmosphere at VP would improve greatly and the club could reduce ticket prices for standing but maintain overall revenue with increased numbers in the standing areas (my guess). I do however think that the trial needs to be more than a few hundred. I appreciate it's a delicate issue but this is "safe standing" as opposed to just standing (with a limit on the numbers of people who can be allowed into the area) and its not like we're the first to trial the system as it's up and running in Germany (for one) in much greater numbers. For me a trial of a few hundred could be disregarded by opposers to the scheme as being too insignificant to give any real data. I'd like to see a few thousand for a season - Perhaps the back of the lower Holte, or all of it. With only a few hundred it seems to be a half ars**d attempt which given the available date elsewhere doesn't really seem to add to the debate. If the idea is to bring passion back to the game then at least have enough there to give it a chance. For one season anyone in the Lower Holte standing area who wants to sit and is losing their seat could be given priority over the general public (as opposed to existing season ticket holders renewing) to change their season ticket for a seat elsewhere in the stadium. That means they can mop up the best seats left remaining after the existing season ticket holders have decided whether to renew their current seats or not. I'd go the whole hog (if numbers in favour suggested the club could completely fill the standing area) and do the whole Lower Holte. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Memories of being on my dads shoulders at a game, when I have a kid I want him to experience standing at a game! Great idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulver Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Bring it back ASAP, it may just save football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Id rather trial the north stand lower as all standing. Its basically a terrace area with seats in anyway. I have never sat down in the lower north 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 All it will take is for one person to fall over and break their arm or have a cup of hot tea spilled on their face and the notion of standing areas will be put firmly back to bed. Health & safety continues to ruin fun for the average man on the street. By the way though, I couldn't advocate something more than this, my best memories of football are standing on the Holte with my Dad and if the option to stand was there I would take it every single time, it's just a shame I can't see it happening no matter how much some of us may wish it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canarykiller Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 Safe standing isn't going to happen easily, and the north stand lower is too big an area for the initial trial. In the survey responses we get a lot of people saying it'd be great to be able to meet their mates when they get there, or move away from the moaning bastard they always seem to get stuck next to, but that isn't an aspect which is going to return any time soon. Many people love the idea of 'going back to standing' but can't really be bothered to read up what it looks like. Safe standing will be ticketed in the same way as seating. We will need to demonstrate in the trial that this is possible. We have to be able to show that we can make standing crowds stick to their allocated spaces, and to do that, we have to trial it in an area which is easy to monitor, and nip any strayers in the bud. The lower north stand leaves far too much room for people to still decide they are going where they like, despite being told otherwise, because 'that's how terraces are supposed to be'. ...& friction will be caused between those prepared to abide by the new way of doing things, and those who think there's no point if it isn't how it used to be.....& the whole thing will dissolve very quickly. If we can build it slowly, then people will understand that this is not a return to the terraces, but more akin to being allowed to stand at your seat. This is the compromise we have to deal with. In later years, once safe standing were established, it may be that under capacity crowds become able to stand where they like. It's a bit like when I go away with Preston North End with my husband - we are handed a seat ticket when we pay on the gate, but when we get to the top of the steps, the stewards just say 'sit where you like'. It could get like this with standing areas as once they are established, but not yet. Conversely, the 'sit where you like' thing even happened at Wycombe for us pre-season, but it was a bit daft because it was actually quite close to full - and as a result it didn't work - and loads of people ended up standing at the front. You can see how this kind of situation could very quickly build a 'case against' for an early trial of standing. This is a big change of culture for all concerned. For any chance of success we have to grow this really slowly, and show not only the authorities, but also the fans, how it works at every stage. ......and we have to make it work at every stage. Straight to a standing area the size of the lower north is a sure fire way to send us right back to square one - well worse, because if we mess this up, I don't think we'll get a second chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) The idea of those corners being made the first standing areas isn't such a bad one. 'Oo knows, they might get people in the Trinity and Witton Lane stands singing a bit. At the moment they're the last to fill up, and when they're empty it's a bit of an eyesore for me when I'm sitting in my armchair watching on tele. Edited October 9, 2013 by CrackpotForeigner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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