canarykiller

Hi! (I looked for an old AVST thread but couldn't find one - so I hope it's Ok to start one!) I'm doing a fan consultation stall for AVST with Lee Preece (The Villa's SLO) in The Academy (family fun zone - North Stand car park) tomorrow before the Arsenal game from 1-2pm. People can just come along to talk to us with comments, compliments, complaints or suggestions & we'll either answer them if we can, or take them up with the relevant person. We thought it'd be good for people to feel they had a regular place to take their issues with the cub - If it works we'll make it a regular thing. You don't have to be a member to come and speak to us, but the opportunity to get signed up will be the if you want to. Maybe see some of you tomorrow? Cheers!

It is gaining momentum though. I am currently field ing calls from supporters groups up & down the country about getting a survey going. I have become a bit of a national safe standing survey mentor. It is all a bit odd, but it does seem that suddenly loads of club's supporters a on it and getting active. Even Liverpool fan groups have started coming out and talking about it. this would have been unheard of 12 months ago. In fact 'This is Anfield' have published a fantastic series of articles arguing that all seater stadiums are all part of the cover up & demonisation of the 96, and far from 'disrespecting' their memory by standing, they should be arguing for its restoration. The Arsenal survey was by an established supporter group, and got 17,000 responses with 92% in favour. Although theirs is much bigger, it was all online, where a third of ours was done face to face. The 2 therefore sit really well together, Arsenal's for pure size of the response, but our for the evidence base. It can be argued that an online survey has a bias towards those in favour, but our work face to face is able to evidence that this is the true picture. Face to face surveying also enables you to get a conversation going, get people talking about it, answer people's questions & concerns, as well as enabling you to target families, women, older people, people with disabilities - all the groups that people reckon won't want it to happen - and show that they want it too. The next premier league meeting isn't till Febraury, and I am closing the online survey tomorrow. I am hoping that other club's supporters picking up the baton will keep the momentum till then and enable Paul Faulkner to get this on the table. If you are mates with fans of other clubs - whether it's Albion/Blues/Wolves or glory hunters - talk to them about it too - get them to track down where it is getting moving at their club, or to get in touch about starts something up themselves. Just anything that keeps people talking will help.

Hi! Sorry I have been away for a while, but I guess we are at that stage where it slows down a bit. I have had a couple of meetings with Paul Faulkner & Lee Preece. They have produced a paper of the survey results which are still showing over 97% in favour of safe standing. They are really pleased with the survey, and believe it gives them something to take forward, but now they really need other clubs to come out in favour too. With that in mind, I was interested to see that Arsenal have published a major fan led survey on 'atmosphere' wich also shows 92% in favour of safe standing. this also shows that things are moving, the tide is turning, fans are starting to stand up & ask for this now. (black Scarf is the name of the fan group - you can find them on twitter - they are well established and it is a much bigger survey than mine) I went to a national meeting of Supporters Trust on Tuesday, and spoke about what we have been doing at Villa. People seemed impressed and I spoke to some of the reps of other clubs afterwards. I am hopeful that we can go down this route to get other sets of supporters to go out and survey their own fans. We need fans up & down the country to demonstrate that this is what fans want. the good thing about Supporters Trusts is that they are about working together as football fans on common causes, like the recent 'Twentys Plenty' campaign for cheaper away tickets. This is a really god place for me to be taking this forward. Paul Faulkner probably need half a dozen other clubs to be able to show their fans are behind this before he can get it properly on the table, and then we need a total of 14 Premiership clubs to suppport it to take it back to parliament. The Football Supporters Federation are also doing some publicity about my survey to encourage fans of other clubs to take it forward. ......and the campaign will be featured in the evening mail and on the official site tomorrow, with some frightening pictures of yours truly, having come straight from work and looking absolutely nothing like your average Holte Ender!

If you attended the meeting, then it most definitely is up to you if you wanted to say It was my first Trust meeting. I've been asked to take on a role there that I would like, so I'd prefer not to F it up by speaking out of turn before I even get started. No carrots or sticks needed for me - I'm just genuinely nice! [https://www.facebook.com/SomethingFreeUK/posts/479411978794777:0quote name="P3te" post="1115271" timestamp="1383246373]Am I being cynical thinking that maybe this is being milked for all it's worth to get more people to join the Villa Trust for the next meeting?

PF has done 2 web chats and an interview in the H&V magazine. If this is your idea of being kept in the dark you must like being blinded! Nothing new, nothing you haven't heard before, just interesting to hear it from the horses mouth - it gives it a different flavour. That's all.

Nice question. Yes I was, not only in content, but the clear honesty & openness with which it was conveyed.

It really isn't up to me, & I can't describe the 'how' in any meaningful way. It's genuinely (as I said on the other forum) a 'you had to be there' thing. Not in a top secret kind of way, but in a meaningless without context kind if way. I don't know if that helps - I don't know if anything other than a transcript will - & we haven't got one, & everyone is going to remember it a bit differently - & there lies a potential minefield beyond the one we somehow already landed in! Seriously - we need to move on. Its done.

I've only just loaded this app & it posted when I was adding a sentence at the end of he first paragraph. I was going to say .....'anything particularly surprising'

No - the sensitive part was not about ambition. Ambition was what most of he questions were about. I'd also say there wasn't anything It was an open meeting, & if loads of people had turned up then clearly the contents would've got to here, but equally, the meeting may have had quite a different feel. There were a small number of Trust members there, which gave it a very informal feel. So, the nature of the meeting changed due to the lack of wider interest. Repeating what was said won't give you any new insight, it was being there and getting a feel of HOW things were said that was interesting. I'm a bit stunned by the vitro tbh. I appreciate that there are people who live far away, or have work commitments, but I wouldn't mind betting that most of he people jumping up & down were in front of their telly less than 10 miles away, & weren't even interested enough to submit a question prior to the meeting.

The government doesn't have to sanction it, there's a loophole. I can't remember what it is exactly, but it is around the fact that the law only says that grounds have to have seats (which rail seating provides). It is ground regs that say you actually have to sit in them - and this is governed by local councils/ football authorities. That might not be exactly right - but John Darch from the safe standing roadshow, who makes it his business to know such things, definitely said that there doesn't need to be a change in law, and the reasoning was along these lines. It is definitely true to say that there is nothing in it for a government, so there are limited reasons for them to invest anything in it. However, interestingly, the police really liked it. they thought it was not only safer, but easier to manage. If the police backed it in these terms, then the government might too. The Hillsborough families do hold a lot of sway, in both footballing circles and in terms of influencing the government. They have a right to hold a strong view on this, but they do not have the right to irrationally dictate the future. Liverpool fans stand up in their seats like everyone else, and rail seating is safer than that.

Definitely! I have to admit that my instinct was to feel a bit gutted when I read last week that Man United have agreed to look at it. So many responses on the survey have talked about how great it would be for this to be another thing that Villa lead the way on, it'd be just typical for Man U to jump aboard at the last minute to steal our thunder! But - the truth is that if Man U support it, it WILL move, because they'll take Sky with them, and the pace of the whole movement will completely change. Man United's interest can only be good news!

Oh - there are some pics on twitter @amfy.

Sorry I am late with an update! It was good! At first it was really hard to get anyone to stop. It was always going to be tougher outside than it has been on the previous weeks where we have mostly surveyed people who were sitting around tables. The weather didn't help but it could have been a lot worse - certainly the worst rain of the day was just after we finished surveying and I made the dash along Witton Lane just in time for kick off. In the last hour we got a lot of interest & it was pretty non stop - lots of people checking out the rig, and picking up surveys. At one point we had a queue for clipboards! The biggest boost of the afternoon was the police coming to look at it, and then tweeting their support. This is a big positive for us Paul Faulkner popped down to see us a couple of times & overall, John Darch from the FSF was really pleased. I am due to meet up with Paul Faulkner next week to see where we go from here, but it is all really positive. We have something we can take forward. If it is true that Man United are ready to jump on board, things will really start to move.

It's pretty much a mini safe standing area, so that people can see it and try it out. I still need some help setting it up at about midday though!

Villa-Revelution - your Villa Cash doesn't begin to Pay for my shoes and bags habits! Anyway all! We have got the Safe Standing Roadshow coming to Villa Park on Sunday! It'll be set up by The Trinity Road ticket collection offices. We need some help setting it up at about midday. You wouldn't have to hang around after -unless you want to help with the surveys, you can just clear off to the pub! Any offers? Thank you. We are on our last push this weekend - and then I'll be meeting Paul Faulkner somewhen around the Everton game to see what we can do with the results.

Villa-revolution That is pretty much exactly correct. It is safe to create approximately 70% more capacity in a standing area with rail seating than the number of seats, however, in exiting stands, this would make exiting the ground unsafe, and the concourses would be unsafe at half time. Until we actually build a new stand, we can't safely increase capacity.

When I went to my first SCG, I talked about safe standing, and the question was reported afterwards as if I had asked for standing to return, and the response was that there were no plans to. In fact, the question I asked was that when they re-build the north stand, would they consider 'future proofing' so that it could be converted into safe standing if it was ever able to return. As it turned out, Villa invited me back to talk about this in more depth, and this was a starting point for what is happening now. As of today - I have surveyed 1000 people, in a wide range of demographics, and we are 97.5% in favour of standing.

Safe standing isn't going to happen easily, and the north stand lower is too big an area for the initial trial. In the survey responses we get a lot of people saying it'd be great to be able to meet their mates when they get there, or move away from the moaning bastard they always seem to get stuck next to, but that isn't an aspect which is going to return any time soon. Many people love the idea of 'going back to standing' but can't really be bothered to read up what it looks like. Safe standing will be ticketed in the same way as seating. We will need to demonstrate in the trial that this is possible. We have to be able to show that we can make standing crowds stick to their allocated spaces, and to do that, we have to trial it in an area which is easy to monitor, and nip any strayers in the bud. The lower north stand leaves far too much room for people to still decide they are going where they like, despite being told otherwise, because 'that's how terraces are supposed to be'. ...& friction will be caused between those prepared to abide by the new way of doing things, and those who think there's no point if it isn't how it used to be.....& the whole thing will dissolve very quickly. If we can build it slowly, then people will understand that this is not a return to the terraces, but more akin to being allowed to stand at your seat. This is the compromise we have to deal with. In later years, once safe standing were established, it may be that under capacity crowds become able to stand where they like. It's a bit like when I go away with Preston North End with my husband - we are handed a seat ticket when we pay on the gate, but when we get to the top of the steps, the stewards just say 'sit where you like'. It could get like this with standing areas as once they are established, but not yet. Conversely, the 'sit where you like' thing even happened at Wycombe for us pre-season, but it was a bit daft because it was actually quite close to full - and as a result it didn't work - and loads of people ended up standing at the front. You can see how this kind of situation could very quickly build a 'case against' for an early trial of standing. This is a big change of culture for all concerned. For any chance of success we have to grow this really slowly, and show not only the authorities, but also the fans, how it works at every stage. ......and we have to make it work at every stage. Straight to a standing area the size of the lower north is a sure fire way to send us right back to square one - well worse, because if we mess this up, I don't think we'll get a second chance.

Apparently Matt Kendrick was trying to phone me yesterday, but unbelievably, I had left my phone at home! Anyway - he says he'll catch up with me in a few weeks for an update article. I was really pleased with what he has out together though & the online survey had leapt by another 100 by 5pm this evening!

Hope you enjoyed doing the Posnan down there yesterday Wainey! Just popping back for a quick update. The online survey is now around 440 strong, and I had another great response in The Holte Suite yesterday. I think me and a helper got something around 150 - certainly well over 100. Alongside the 100 or so I got before Newcastle, I think we may even be nearly there! I'll probably keep the online survey for another few weeks, see if I can send some surveys out with the free coaches to Hull. Do some face to face surveys before Spurs, and then I think it'll be done. It is a bit of a landslide in favour of standing - Thank you to everyone for your support. I really hope that the club can do something with this

I wouldn't campaign to get the terraces of old back. The new arrangements are nothing like that.safe standing consists of rail seating, which is like standing at your seat but safer. I am not looking back misty eyed, I know the terraces were dangerous. I used to think it was hilarious when I got carried 20 yards from where I started when We scored, or knocked myself out for a moment on a barrier and ended up on the floor, untilthe day when 96 football fans didn't come home, and I realised then that the had been times when that could have been me. When you say it is in the past, you are ignoring the fact that thousands of football supporters stand every week, but they do so in an unsafe way. When Matty Lowton scored that screamer at Stoke last season, people went over 3 rows of seats. There weren't any serious injuries, but there were injuries. Rail seating (safe standing) would have prevented this. The rail is high enough to stop people toppling overthe rows. The rows are only one seat apart anyway, the spaces are ticketed in the same way as seats to prevent overcrowding. There is no possibility of a 'Hillsborough' type tragedy, in fact the potential for injury is reduced. I did used to love being able to just find my mates when I got there, but there are good reasons why this will not be returning. Similarly, untill whole stands are rebuilt, we won't be getting any more people in, because the even if the spectator are holds more people, the concourses don't, and we won't have enough exits, or toilets. The improved atmosphere comes in the same way as it does now, when fans stand they are somehow more involved. I don't even know why that is, but it is.

My last post was a little disjointed because my husband had put my dinner on the table and was shouting at me to put the iPad down! (slight role reversal in our house!) As I say, I think I am driving my nearest and dearest a little mad with this at the moment - which is part of the reason it took me so long to pick up the baton, I knew it would be all consuming. I really would prefer to just be getting a few pints in pre-match, but I have to say I am finding this pretty rewarding. If Villa are satisfied that I have proved that this is what the fans want, they will pursue it. Whether they can get it or not is the next thing! I am convinced at this stage that I can get my bit done - then it is down to the club, but they have convinced me that if it's what we want, they will do everything they can to get us there. Online, things are starting to slow down, but the paper surveys do provide better evidence as I can show better evidence that there is no bias. They also provide the opportunity to engage people, and answer their concerns. I am intending to do The Holte Suite for the Man City game, because I found on Family Fun Day that it is really easy to survey people who are sitting at tables. I was able to just leave the information with them, and then come back to talk to them & answer any questions. I've got one person to help me for that game, so we should cover a good amount of ground between us. Apparently, 700 match going fans would be a statistically valid sample, so I am looking for 700-1000. I am over halfway there in a week! I haven't really publicised it more widely because it need to be Villa fans filling this in, not football fans in general. I could also do without a load of noses deciding it would be hilarious to mess it up! If anyone else would like to help me on match days - please pm.

I have been putting updates out on twitter, and I am starting to bore my football supporting friends let alone those who have no interest in football, as it all also appears on my Facebook. (I am @amfy) I was going to put an update on this weekend, and then I looked and I have 396 online responses ( to go with 96 paper ones). I was thinking I would update when I hit 400 (or maybe 500 altogether. I can tell you that it currently stands at 97% in favour of standing with 76% of these actually wanting to stand themselves. there is less than 3% against. There's could be an argument that there is a bias in that people who are in favour of standing are more likely to fill it in, but to be fair, when I did the paper version on family fun day, I got the same proportion in favour, just lower on the 'wanting to stand myself'. So it does stand up.

Andy, If you would like it to stay all seating, you need to fill in the survey, because if everyone who shares your opinion does not fill in the survey, it will look like everyone wants standing. It takes 5 minutes.

Hi Andy! No-one is talking about taking ALL the seats away! We're talking about choice. At the moment you have a seat to sit on, but half of the time you can't sit on it because someone who prefers to stand has stood in your way. Let the people who want to stand go somewhere else in the ground and stand, so that you can sit. It's a win win! However - if you don't agree with it, please fill in the survey and say so. I do want to hear from all sides of the debate.