Chop chop! Lets all gawp at Newcastle (again)

[Mark Albrighton]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

That's fine. Admirable even.

The reality for most people is different. There's a few things to think about for the Newcastle fans. I'm guessing that most, if not all of them supported Newcastle before the take over. So to suddenly stop and lose something that gives pleasure and enjoyment and social life and all the rest of that stuff to their lives isn't a straightforward, er black and white issue.

And if they did stop, what does it actually achieve? Basically nothing. It's a commendable but futile act.

What would you do if your employer was taken over by Saudi? would you resign? What about if your employer is a subcontractor to, say, one of the companies that sells arms to Saudi, or supports Saudi business in some way? Would you boycott a business that sells products to Saudi - Land-Rover, or Jaguar, say? Would you write to those companies and say how you object to them dealing with a repressive regime? And if not, why not, when you would give up your season ticket for the same reason?

And the flip side is plenty of Newcastle fans protested against Ashley for various reasons from "Cockney Mafia" through to Lack of funds, but now they've got another "mafia" and loads of money, barely a peep.

So if you look at it through the lens of "this is my enjoyment and me stopping will make no difference" then you end up with one outcome, and if you look at it through the lens of "this is a pretty horrible regime" then you end up with another outcome. I guess most will maybe see both those aspects as holding water and see both sides of the coin, but criticising people for (not) doing something symbolic about their club's ownership, over which they have no control, is kind of modern life.

I think there’s a huge difference between having to suck it up and get on with it if suddenly your place of work has been taken over by a despicable regime and if the club you support has been taken over.

One is the source of your income, the other essentially is a hobby. It would be much easier to not do your hobby anymore.

[OzyBoy]

On 19/08/2023 at 23:23, Rodders said:

They can not support the club. It's football it's just a past time. It's meaningless compared to proper issues. Transport and the basics of life is a complex area but that's no excuse to say anything goes with luxuries. There's no necessity to watch football. So no sympathy. **** all their fans. Absolute rocket polishers

Supporting a football club is pretty arbitrary, and generally comes down to a quirk of birth, where you happen to be born. As such, one fan base is substantially similar to any other. Of course there are differences; North London supporters will typically be more middle class than supporters in working class cities like Newcastle or Liverpool, or Birmingham or Leeds. But, as a population, the views represented by Newcastle fans, and their values, will be very similar to those represented by Villa fans.

Individually, you'll have people, much like on this forum, that would rather walk away than support their club if it were taken over by Saudi ownership; and there have been Newcastle supporters that have done that. And that's very commendable. But if you think, en masse, there would be any difference between how Newcastle fans have reacted and how Villa fans would react; or how excited Newcastle fans are now and how excited Villa fans would be, then I think you're mistaken.

When you label rival fans as "morons" or "scum" or "rocket polishers" (and I've genuinely no idea what that means), you may as well label your own fans or, in fact, humanity in general, as the same. Dislike for specific other teams or supporters is basically irrational.

This isn't a defence of Saudi ownership, it's more a recognition that if this takeover had happened to any other club, including Villa, then the reaction from the vast majority of the fans of that club would be exactly the same.

[villan95]

Count me in as another who'd stop supporting Villa if they had owners like Newcastle. I know it wouldn't make a difference but at least my conscience would be clear and I wouldn't be complicit in the sports washing.

[Rodders]

2 minutes ago, OzyBoy said:

Supporting a football club is pretty arbitrary, and generally comes down to a quirk of birth, where you happen to be born. As such, one fan base is substantially similar to any other. Of course there are differences; North London supporters will typically be more middle class than supporters in working class cities like Newcastle or Liverpool, or Birmingham or Leeds. But, as a population, the views represented by Newcastle fans, and their values, will be very similar to those represented by Villa fans.

Individually, you'll have people, much like on this forum, that would rather walk away than support their club if it were taken over by Saudi ownership; and there have been Newcastle supporters that have done that. And that's very commendable. But if you think, en masse, there would be any difference between how Newcastle fans have reacted and how Villa fans would react; or how excited Newcastle fans are now and how excited Villa fans would be, then I think you're mistaken.

When you label rival fans as "morons" or "scum" or "rocket polishers" (and I've genuinely no idea what that means), you may as well label your own fans or, in fact, humanity in general, as the same. Dislike for specific other teams or supporters is basically irrational.

This isn't a defence of Saudi ownership, it's more a recognition that if this takeover had happened to any other club, including Villa, then the reaction from the vast majority of the fans of that club would be exactly the same.

 

I've not denied that, I still think people are shit. I think people are shit when they support parties which make this country objectively worse, I think people are shit who are bigoted towards people. I think all kinds of people for various reasons are shit people. Whether they enacting shit things, or making excuses for other people being shit. As other people may well think I am shit for reason, x, y, z. Life is short, and I'm not going to waste time spending it with people who's values are so out of whack with mine. They've made their choice. I'm flexible with most things , I can chat with people who are leftish or rightish generally or have a range of different views on most things. I draw the line at endorsing despotic regimes. For no good reason other than cowardice and habit

[OzyBoy]

27 minutes ago, Rodders said:

 

I've not denied that, I still think people are shit. I think people are shit when they support parties which make this country objectively worse, I think people are shit who are bigoted towards people. I think all kinds of people for various reasons are shit people. Whether they enacting shit things, or making excuses for other people being shit. As other people may well think I am shit for reason, x, y, z. Life is short, and I'm not going to waste time spending it with people who's values are so out of whack with mine. They've made their choice. I'm flexible with most things , I can chat with people who are leftish or rightish generally or have a range of different views on most things. I draw the line at endorsing despotic regimes. For no good reason other than cowardice and habit

You're giving Newcastle supporters, and by extension supporters of any club, and by further extension *most people*, far too much credit - they're not actively "endorsing despotic regimes", they're just passively ignoring it - and maybe that's worse. They simply don't think about it; they're apolitical; politically uneducated, indifferent, and disinterested. If people, in general, cared beyond their immediate sphere of relationships, then you wouldn't have "stop the boats" as a perceived top-5 priority of the British people. But people's views are generally parochial and narrow; what happens around them is far more important that what happens far away.

In the same way that people aren't, generally, interested that their clothes are made by exploited kids in sweatshops, they're not interested in what's happening in the Middle East; it's too far removed from their daily lives for them to care about.

Basically I agree with you - people are shit.

[bannedfromHandV]

53 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

I think there’s a huge difference between having to suck it up and get on with it if suddenly your place of work has been taken over by a despicable regime and if the club you support has been taken over.

One is the source of your income, the other essentially is a hobby. It would be much easier to not do your hobby anymore.

Is being a Villa fan a hobby? News to me because it’s not something I can just pick up and drop as and when I feel like it, guess everyone follows their club in different ways tho. 

[Mark Albrighton]

5 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Is being a Villa fan a hobby? News to me because it’s not something I can just pick up and drop as and when I feel like it, guess everyone follows their club in different ways tho. 

Hobby/interest yeah I think it is. People are obviously passionate about it, but I think that’s ultimately what it is. You have passionate, dedicated trainspotters. It’s still a hobby/interest.

What else would you call it? It’s not your vocation. 

I didn’t say it would be easy to drop, I said it would be easier to drop because of principles compared to having to change your job because of principles.

[MarkLillis]

1 hour ago, Mark Albrighton said:

I think there’s a huge difference between having to suck it up and get on with it if suddenly your place of work has been taken over by a despicable regime and if the club you support has been taken over.

One is the source of your income, the other essentially is a hobby. It would be much easier to not do your hobby anymore.

I would find it impossible to “give up” about Villa.

Maybe I could as I have in the past for various reasons not actually go to the game.

However we are talking about things that I have only heard about being done to people I’ve never seen.It’s really difficult to get emotional about it.

Its just doesn’t affect my life and nor will affect the Geordies I guess.

[villa4europe]

1 hour ago, Mark Albrighton said:

I think there’s a huge difference between having to suck it up and get on with it if suddenly your place of work has been taken over by a despicable regime and if the club you support has been taken over.

One is the source of your income, the other essentially is a hobby. It would be much easier to not do your hobby anymore.

I actually think the opposite...

its relatively easy to change my job, do the exact same thing for another company

on the other hand with modern football being rubbish aston villa pretty much are football for me, I wouldn't be walking away from villa and picking say kiddy harriers or even a local German team, id be completely walking away altogether, so I'll say it and seemingly swim against the tide, id still support villa if we were owned by the Saudis but by support I mean watch us every week on TV buy a shirt if its nice and talk about us on here, that's the limit of what my support already is

[bobzy]

2 hours ago, Mark Albrighton said:

I think there’s a huge difference between having to suck it up and get on with it if suddenly your place of work has been taken over by a despicable regime and if the club you support has been taken over.

One is the source of your income, the other essentially is a hobby. It would be much easier to not do your hobby anymore.

What you're saying should be the case but, as @villa4europe says, the opposite is true.

I reckon most people have changed job in their lifetime.  How many have changed from supporting another football team to supporting Aston Villa?

 

(And @OzyBoy, "rocket polisher" is an auto-censor on the forum for a word which could mean to, er, polish your rocket.  You rocket polisher.  )

[Mark Albrighton]

1 hour ago, villa4europe said:

I actually think the opposite...

its relatively easy to change my job, do the exact same thing for another company

on the other hand with modern football being rubbish aston villa pretty much are football for me, I wouldn't be walking away from villa and picking say kiddy harriers or even a local German team, id be completely walking away altogether, so I'll say it and seemingly swim against the tide, id still support villa if we were owned by the Saudis but by support I mean watch us every week on TV buy a shirt if its nice and talk about us on here, that's the limit of what my support already is

I’m really talking about the practicalities of leaving a job and finding another one v not supporting a football club anymore. Practicalities over sentiment.

I’m trying to imagine someone having a conversation with their partner and them saying “Darling, I’ve decided to leave my job…” and “Darling, I won’t be visiting Villa Park anymore…”. I know which one is going to result in a longer conversation.

It would be harder to stop supporting a club sentimentally because you’re more emotionally attached to the club.

It would be harder to up and quit your job  just like <click fingers> that, because of the practicalities of y’know having to live and things. 

I don’t know how involved in football I’d be. I wouldn’t do any of the things you’ve listed there with regards to Villa. Wouldn’t buy a shirt, wouldn’t watch us. I’d likely get more into other things.

The trickiest thing I suppose would be my participation on here. It would take a bit of training and a bit resilience to stop looking at On Topic, but I reckon I could do it, other posters do it. I went through a few indifferent years under O’Leary, I look back on those years and I can’t recall being present for much of it. It would be like I guess.

In case the thought is mooted, hypothetically, if Saudi Villa played Saudi Newcastle in the FA cup final, yes I’d want Saudi Villa to win. But I wouldn’t watch it.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Mark Albrighton

[robby b]

20 hours ago, bobzy said:

My Mum is a Geordie, and has been a long term outspoken critic of Saudi Arabia (and many other countries, to be fair) - particularly on their treatment of women. 

I'm so glad you posted this, thank you !

I don't want to be part of a majority that doesn't speak out against Saudi Arabia's women's rights abuse - which includes the imprisonment of women's rights activists (just for protesting) - and other human rights abuse. I think the debate about sportswashing is really important and I want NUFC fans to have to constantly be faced with it. If that feels really uncomfortable for some of them then good !

Edited August 21, 2023 by robby b

[Panto_Villan]

35 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

I’m really talking about the practicalities of leaving a job and finding another one v not supporting a football club anymore. Practicalities over sentiment.

I’m trying to imagine someone having a conversation with their partner and them saying “Darling, I’ve decided to leave my job…” and “Darling, I won’t be visiting Villa Park anymore…”. I know which one is going to result in a longer conversation.

It would be harder to stop supporting a club sentimentally because you’re more emotionally attached to the club.

It would be harder to up and quit your job  just like <click fingers> that, because of the practicalities of y’know having to live and things. 

I don’t know how involved in football I’d be. I wouldn’t do any of the things you’ve listed there with regards to Villa. Wouldn’t buy a shirt, wouldn’t watch us. I’d likely get more into other things.

The trickiest thing I suppose would be my participation on here. It would take a bit of training and a bit resilience to stop looking at On Topic, but I reckon I could do it, other posters do it. I went through a few indifferent years under O’Leary, I look back on those years and I can’t recall being present for much of it. It would be like I guess.

In case the thought is mooted, hypothetically, if Saudi Villa played Saudi Newcastle in the FA cup final, yes I’d want Saudi Villa to win. But I wouldn’t watch it.

I don’t really think what the longer conversation with your wife is a good yardstick though - she’s not the one that supports Villa, so it wouldn’t impact her negatively. Whereas you leaving your job does impact her.

Most people have supported Villa longer than they’ve been in their current job, and they’re probably more passionate about Villa than they are about their jobs.

Personally I think it’d be quite a bit easier to change jobs than football clubs (obviously this depends on your type of employment though).

[OzyBoy]

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

What you're saying should be the case but, as @villa4europe says, the opposite is true.

I reckon most people have changed job in their lifetime.  How many have changed from supporting another football team to supporting Aston Villa?

 

(And @OzyBoy, "rocket polisher" is an auto-censor on the forum for a word which could mean to, er, polish your rocket.  You rocket polisher.  )

Did someone say rocket polisher?

[OzyBoy]

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

What you're saying should be the case but, as @villa4europe says, the opposite is true.

I reckon most people have changed job in their lifetime.  How many have changed from supporting another football team to supporting Aston Villa?

 

(And @OzyBoy, "rocket polisher" is an auto-censor on the forum for a word which could mean to, er, polish your rocket.  You rocket polisher.  )

Haha yes I see now 

[Mark Albrighton]

5 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

I don’t really think what the longer conversation with your wife is a good yardstick though - she’s not the one that supports Villa, so it wouldn’t impact her negatively. Whereas you leaving your job does impact her.

Most people have supported Villa longer than they’ve been in their current job, and they’re probably more passionate about Villa than they are about their jobs.

Personally I think it’d be quite a bit easier to change jobs than football clubs (obviously this depends on your type of employment though).

Again, I am talking practicalities over sentiment.

I think it’s easier to decide to stop supporting a football club on a whim with fewer wider ramifications to your life than it is to quit your job on a whim.

The original post asked whether someone would quit their job because the Saudi regime have taken over their company. I am saying it would require more weighing up of options, more time to find an alternative line of employment. So someone may be unhappy in their new Saudi backed job, but until they find an alternative to pay the bills, they’d have to stick it out.

Personally, I don’t think it’s a great comparison which is why I replied initially. You are comparing two very different things, a job/career (which for all we know someone might have been training for years) v hobby/interest/personal passion/whatever you want to call it.
 

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

Personally, I don’t think it’s a great comparison which is why I replied initially. You are comparing two very different things, a job/career (which for all we know someone might have been training for years) v hobby/interest/personal passion/whatever you want to call it.

It wasn’t meant as a comparison, Mark. It was meant as a kind of question on where you draw the line and how rational that decision is for a Newcastle fan. 

[Mark Albrighton]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

It wasn’t meant as a comparison, Mark. It was meant as a kind of question on where you draw the line and how rational that decision is for a Newcastle fan. 

Fair enough. I think it requires a different thought process. 

Someone might want to quit their Saudi backed job, but they can’t (initially or otherwise) for financial/job prospect reasons. Maybe it would mean moving and relocating their family, I don’t know.

So that person might want to draw the line in the same moral ground as no longer supporting a football team, but they can’t as easily - on a practical level, rather than an emotional one.

[bannedfromHandV]

3 hours ago, Mark Albrighton said:

Hobby/interest yeah I think it is. People are obviously passionate about it, but I think that’s ultimately what it is. You have passionate, dedicated trainspotters. It’s still a hobby/interest.

What else would you call it? It’s not your vocation. 

I didn’t say it would be easy to drop, I said it would be easier to drop because of principles compared to having to change your job because of principles.

I would actually sooner change jobs than stop following the Villa, but then I’m accustomed to changing jobs.

Yes it’s a hobby but it goes much deeper than that as we all know, and in particular in Newcastle where there’s very little but a football team.

[delboy54]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12428219/Thousands-migrants-shot-pieces-killed-Saudi-border-guards-year-tried-enter-kingdom-report-claims.html

Sorry it's from that paper...and I hope I have linked it correctly.

If Villa were owned by the Saudis, it would be easy for me to walk away from Villa and football to be honest.