saturdaygig Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 8 hours ago, avfc1982 said: we had about 2 poor seasons before being relegated in '87 then he got us straight back up where we've been ever since. By the skin of our teeth on the last day though you might also remember. It's hardly like we bossed it. Could easily have spent years down there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 13 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: Jeremy Cross did absolutely no fact checking before writing that article, which is a shame because I admire the sentiment. And there lies another problem as much as it is an easy post to agree with it possibly has flaws....was it his fault a promising young goalkeeper in Jack Butland was under our nose and we failed to lure him? Despite us not being over blessed in that area. maybe it is his fault, but we need to know the facts......for me as much as he has got lots wrong.....others at the club have capitalised on his lack of nous, instead of promoting their own skills and drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted January 18, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2016 3 hours ago, thabucks said: Criminal sabotage ? What like tearing down the old Trinity Road stand rather than sympathetically restoring, letting the Holte hotel fall into a state of such disrepair. Refusing to pay for a pitch so we ended up playing on painted sand? Lerner has neglected us yes but I'd say your statement is a tad OTT referring to criminal sabotage. You say at at least Doug didnt abandon the club, yet he let it fall by the wayside financially (as has Lerner) but answer me this...How much money did Doug put into the club Vs take out ? His much has Lerner put in to taken out? Occasional bad season ? We were shite under both and have been good under both. Different eras and timescales. We did win x2 cup finals under Doug but over an ownership period over twice as long. Both are bad for differing reasons. No revisionism required. It's not a case of one being good one being bad. Both have been bad for the club and have also done good. Lerner has tried and failed and is trying to find someone to take us forward. Can't ask for much more to be (realistically) honest. Everybody has their good points: The VW beetle was made possible by Hitler. Ellis and Lerner share the most important of attributes: They are not good enough to be owners of our club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New_Jersey_Villa Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 At least between Doug and Randy we haven't turned into a total financial disaster. People really need to appreciate that fact a little bit more and be thankful we didn't go the way of so many other clubs who borrowed out of their asses and then disappeared without a trace. My 2 cents. (Pence) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted January 19, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted January 19, 2016 I can't tell if we didn't "do a Leeds"...... .... or we are slowly "doing a Leeds". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 2 hours ago, New_Jersey_Villa said: At least between Doug and Randy we haven't turned into a total financial disaster. People really need to appreciate that fact a little bit more and be thankful we didn't go the way of so many other clubs who borrowed out of their asses and then disappeared without a trace. My 2 cents. (Pence) Massive lol. I woke up with a huge laugh at this. We should appreciate that Lerner has not bankrupted us is basically what you've said there 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New_Jersey_Villa Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 36 minutes ago, Richard said: Massive lol. I woke up with a huge laugh at this. We should appreciate that Lerner has not bankrupted us is basically what you've said there Sure, why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 We should probably feel lucky, not appreciative, it's more through luck than skill that the trust fund baby hasn't lost every penny by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, New_Jersey_Villa said: Sure, why not? Do you not see how ridiculous that is? Thank you Mr Lerner we really appreciate that you have not bankrupted us like so many other clubs in the premier league have been bankrupted . Oh. We really appreciate that you are just a really bad owner and not an appallingly bad one that would have bankrupted us. sorry but excuses for Lerner reach a new low when we have to appreciate he hasn't bankrupted us. Edited January 19, 2016 by Richard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TrentVilla Posted January 19, 2016 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2016 4 hours ago, New_Jersey_Villa said: At least between Doug and Randy we haven't turned into a total financial disaster. People really need to appreciate that fact a little bit more and be thankful we didn't go the way of so many other clubs who borrowed out of their asses and then disappeared without a trace. My 2 cents. (Pence) Sorry but that is just so wrong it's almost laughable. There is little if anything to be thankful to Lerner for other than perhaps he tried in the early days to reverse the decay of the Ellis years. But be thankful to him for his financial stewardship of the club? I'm sorry but that is without a doubt one of the daftest things I've seen posted on this site. To be thankful to Lerner for that would like being thankful that the captain of the Titantic didn't hit an iceberg before cocktails were surved. You make it sound like we have a sound financial footing when the reality is really quite different. Take a look at the accounts, we have plenty of debt and the team has been run into the ground (or an iceberg) for 6 years because of it because of Lerner, his complete clueless inept management and a series of woeful appointments in all areas of the club. Are we really so different to Leeds or Pompy? Both clubs got themselves in a mess through unsustainable spending, lack of financial control and wage bills bloated by overpaid average players. Sound familiar? Those two had fire sales of all their assets and still they sank further. Well we sold our best assists already, we ain't got all that much else to flog. Yet we still have plenty of debt the only difference is its owed to Lerner and not banks so we aren't being crippled by interest and so far the debts haven't been called in in full. Should we be thankful to Lerner for trying to clear up a mess entirely of his own making? No because all he is trying to do is recoup his money at our expense, he has made supporting this club a joyless experience for thousands for 5 years. I think it's more than a little premature to be thinking we are a cut above Leeds or Pompy, we are going down and who knows what we will do once we are down there I certainly think it's possible relegation won't be the bottom for us. So while you are entitled to your opinion and to post it on here, with the greatest of respect, I think you are utterly utterly wrong. So if you've 2 cents to spare post them to Randy will you, the sooner he has his money back the sooner we are rid of him and we might just might be able to get back to being a football club. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 1 hour ago, New_Jersey_Villa said: Sure, why not? Isn't that like claiming that we should all be thankful we weren't hit by a bus today? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 11 hours ago, saturdaygig said: By the skin of our teeth on the last day though you might also remember. It's hardly like we bossed it. Could easily have spent years down there. We bounced straight back and we've been here ever since. I don't see what your point is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 19, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted January 19, 2016 I don't think it's right to be "Thankful" to Lerner for us not being in financial meltdown. But I do think it's right to acknowledge that that COULD have happened if he hadn't cut back recently. It showed a certain amount of nous to do that. However, the only reason we had to do that was because of Lerner anyway. So he kind of absolves himself of any credit. So yes, recognise that it was probably the sensible thing to do from where we were. But also recognise that he's the reason we got to that position anyway, so it doesn't really hold up that he gets any credit for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 54 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Sorry but that is just so wrong it's almost laughable. There is little if anything to be thankful to Lerner for other than perhaps he tried in the early days to reverse the decay of the Ellis years. But be thankful to him for his financial stewardship of the club? I'm sorry but that is without a doubt one of the daftest things I've seen posted on this site. To be thankful to Lerner for that would like being thankful that the captain of the Titantic didn't hit an iceberg before cocktails were surved. You make it sound like we have a sound financial footing when the reality is really quite different. Take a look at the accounts, we have plenty of debt and the team has been run into the ground (or an iceberg) for 6 years because of it because of Lerner, his complete clueless inept management and a series of woeful appointments in all areas of the club. Are we really so different to Leeds or Pompy? Both clubs got themselves in a mess through unsustainable spending, lack of financial control and wage bills bloated by overpaid average players. Sound familiar? Those two had fire sales of all their assets and still they sank further. Well we sold our best assists already, we ain't got all that much else to flog. Yet we still have plenty of debt the only difference is its owed to Lerner and not banks so we aren't being crippled by interest and so far the debts haven't been called in in full. Should we be thankful to Lerner for trying to clear up a mess entirely of his own making? No because all he is trying to do is recoup his money at our expense, he has made supporting this club a joyless experience for thousands for 5 years. I think it's more than a little premature to be thinking we are a cut above Leeds or Pompy, we are going down and who knows what we will do once we are down there I certainly think it's possible relegation won't be the bottom for us. So while you are entitled to your opinion and to post it on here, with the greatest of respect, I think you are utterly utterly wrong. So if you've 2 cents to spare post them to Randy will you, the sooner he has his money back the sooner we are rid of him and we might just might be able to get back to being a football club. Spot on. Much better than my attempt. On the debt though, be careful you'll be called out for that on here . There are people who do not believe we have any debt at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 19, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted January 19, 2016 6 minutes ago, Richard said: Spot on. Much better than my attempt. On the debt though, be careful you'll be called out for that on here . There are people who do not believe we have any debt at all! Are there? Seems strange as they are demonstrably wrong. There are, however, people that recognise there is a big difference between owing money to the banks than owing money to the current owner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted January 19, 2016 Moderator Share Posted January 19, 2016 36 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Are there? Seems strange as they are demonstrably wrong. There are, however, people that recognise there is a big difference between owing money to the banks than owing money to the current owner. In all honesty no I'm not sure there are although I think I know what Richard means. Rather than people saying we've no debt they've suggested the debt is in someway less of a burden because it's owed to him, or that he will never get it back, or that he has invested the money with no intention of getting it back. It kind of ties in with the arguements over how much money he has actually put into the club rather than loaned or converted into equity dilusion. So I'm not sure people have argued we have no debt but there has, for a number of years until relatively recently been an unwillingness from some to see the reality of our situation or the true nature of Lerner's 'investment' in the club during his 'custodianship' something that has only really been changing the last 12 months for some. Yet still there is oddly those who defend Lerner, seems intent on almost justifying or excusing his actions and in the avmbove extreme example think we should be appreciative. Lerner doesn't get half as much stick as he should or should have done for 5 or 6 years now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Lerner's reign has been catastrophic. It matters little whether he is better or worse than Ellis but my view is that he had better intentions than Ellis but not the ability to see those intentions through. It has never been clear why he bought Villa in the first place. My best guess is that he thought he could have a little fun and turn a small profit by demonstrating a little good-old American business expertise to those backward Brits - he dramatically underestimated the size of the challenge For me he made a fatal error; Relying on clowns like Krulak rather than surrounding himself with football expertise, this meant that spending under MON looked only at the here and now rather than also building for the future. By the time he woke up to the fact we had begun a downward spiral. Houllier's health made his appointment a real gamble, McLeish was a stop gap intended to control costs and Lambert looked a good appointment but one that ultimately didn't work (how much due to Lambert's abilities and how much due to lack of investment we'll never know). Sherwood worked short-term but never looked a good long term appointment, Now we have Garde - he will need to cobble together a squad on a shoestring and hopefully get us back to lower mid-table, which will be the pinnacle of Lerner's ambition. We have hit the buffers (duffers?) at exactly the wrong time. In the past a well supported club like Villa could have recovered their position by outspending rivals who attracted lower gates, but in today's model TV money means that smaller teams are at little disadvantage - Stoke and Leicester for example are likely to earn £40-£50m more prize money than we do. a few seasons like that and you're in real trouble. A small crumb of comfort is that TV money means little in the Championship so the better supported teams regain their advantage (but only if the owner then spends that money on the team) Make no mistake these are desperate times for us. I think that many are under the belief that we will have a nice little holiday in the championship, win it at a canter and return to our "rightful" position refreshed. That is absolutely not the case. We desperately need a new owner and one who can inject £100m into the squad, until then we could well struggle to come back up and even if we do we could easily become a yo-yo club. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 19, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) I don't disagree with much of that but the debt IS less of a burden because it's owed to him, especially while he's still the owner. As is the debt he converted into equity. Even if he adds that on to the price of the club as some people have suggested (with no evidence to back it up), it's still less of a burden to us that he's done that. Edit: @TrentVilla Edited January 19, 2016 by Stevo985 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 13 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: I don't disagree with much of that but the debt IS less of a burden because it's owed to him, especially while he's still the owner. As is the debt he converted into equity. Even if he adds that on to the price of the club as some people have suggested (with no evidence to back it up), it's still less of a burden to us that he's done that. Edit: @TrentVilla Maybe I'm not getting it but Lerner paid (a) £62m and has lost around (b) £240m since then and so is in for (a+b) circa £300m. Eventually he will sell for whatever he can get, say, (c) £100m and so his total losses will be a+b-c, perhaps £200m A buyer will pay what they consider a fair price so adding any debt onto the price would just mean that he wouldn't sell it - am I missing something (serious question)?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 If we have lost £40m a year for six years it gives you some idea of the challenge if we want to live within our means. We need to take a lot of very good decisions if we want to progress without someone propping up the spending - I guess it must be possible looking at Stoke or Everton but it looks a long long way away from where we are now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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