The Randy Lerner thread

[P3te]

the fact is the majority of his time here has seen us be shit.

 

Actually, the majority of the time we've been alright. 5 finishes 11th or higher in 9 seasons and qualified for Europe in 4 out of 9 (5 if we win the FA Cup). That's not really "the majority of his time here"

[DCJonah]

the fact is the majority of his time here has seen us be shit.

Actually, the majority of the time we've been alright. 5 finishes 11th or higher in 9 seasons and qualified for Europe in 4 out of 9 (5 if we win the FA Cup). That's not really "the majority of his time here"

If you just look at a stat sheet. I'll be surprised if anyone really enjoyed watching us on a regular basis under McDonald/Houllier even though we finished 9th in the end.

[kurtsimonw]

We were frustrating under Houllier, but that's because we were so open. The games were entertaining.

[DCJonah]

I think the mass booing around January and calls for him to be sacked show not many enjoyed it.

[bobzy]

Any football player under McLeish/Houllier/Lambert/Sherwood that people don't enjoy isn't down to Randy Lerner.  The guy is culpable for where we are because of mass overspending at the start of his reign.  Since then, he's fixed it somewhat and we look in a decent state now.

 

What would new owners bring to the table that Lerner doesn't?

[DCJonah]

A plan to be successful? All we've seen from Lerner is massive overspend followed by barely survive on the cheap.

I think a new owner could grow the club and ensure we dont switch from such drastically different managers in short periods. Develop a system like Swansea or Southampton, so that if a manager goes we dont all of a sudden head in a completely different direction as a club.

[AlwaysAVFC]

We were frustrating under Houllier, but that's because we were so open. The games were entertaining.

I always felt we were brewing to hammer some one under Houllier and build from there. It didn't happen though apart from the end of the season and Houllier wasn't even in charge.

[P3te]

A plan to be successful? All we've seen from Lerner is massive overspend followed by barely survive on the cheap.

I think a new owner could grow the club and ensure we dont switch from such drastically different managers in short periods. Develop a system like Swansea or Southampton, so that if a manager goes we dont all of a sudden head in a completely different direction as a club.

Maybe that's what fix and Sherwood's appointments hint at? A plan to be successful?

[DCJonah]

A plan to be successful? All we've seen from Lerner is massive overspend followed by barely survive on the cheap.

I think a new owner could grow the club and ensure we dont switch from such drastically different managers in short periods. Develop a system like Swansea or Southampton, so that if a manager goes we dont all of a sudden head in a completely different direction as a club.

Maybe that's what fix and Sherwood's appointments hint at? A plan to be successful?

We'll see. Sherwood only joined due to no longer being able to stick with Lambert. That doesn't come across as being part of some long term thinking. Morr reacting to the plan to survive keeping costs low back firing.

[bobzy]

A plan to be successful? All we've seen from Lerner is massive overspend followed by barely survive on the cheap.

I think a new owner could grow the club and ensure we dont switch from such drastically different managers in short periods. Develop a system like Swansea or Southampton, so that if a manager goes we dont all of a sudden head in a completely different direction as a club.

 

Lerner is pretty much doing exactly the same thing that Swansea/Southampton are doing?

 

He hired Lambert (young, enthusiastic manager) on a long-term plan to invest in youth and develop the side.  Lambert gets sacked, he hires Sherwood (young, enthusiastic manager) who has an eye for developing youth.  It's the same shit.

 

I completely blame Lerner for the initial stages of his ownership - and that's the main reason why we've struggled - but we've come out the other side of that now.  Providing we stay up, I think we've got a lot to look forward to.  I don't think a new owner does anything any differently or any better right now.

[DCJonah]

Lerner is pretty much doing exactly the same thing that Swansea/Southampton are doing?

He hired Lambert (young, enthusiastic manager) on a long-term plan to invest in youth and develop the side. Lambert gets sacked, he hires Sherwood (young, enthusiastic manager) who has an eye for developing youth. It's the same shit.

Were those clubs trying to survive with keeping costs low so they could be sold?

Their plans are all about being as successful as possible.

I don't think a new owner does anything any differently or any better right now.

Some also thought no new manager would do much better than Lambert. Edited May 8, 2015 by DCJonah

[bobzy]

I fundamentally disagree that Lerner was "keeping costs low" to sell the club.  He was basically saving the club from the ridiculous financial damage done early in his reign.  It's born out some frustrating years, but he's not in this to make as much as possible.  He wanted to be the guy who brought success to Aston Villa and overspent to achieve it - but failed.

 

You say "their plans are all about being as successful as possible".  If we were to follow that model, we sell Benteke right now.  Whilst his stock is high.  We do the same with Delph and Grealish (should a ridiculous offer come in).  Is this what you want?

[DCJonah]

Just a coincidence he puts the club up for sale after surviving on low costs then?

If a ridiculous offer comes in and the player wants to leave I don't think there's much you can do about it. I don't think we should actively look to cash in on them no.

[sexbelowsound]

Could he not just have been doing both?

 

Keeping costs low to save us from further financial damage with a view to making us a much more attractive sell?

[DCJonah]

Could he not just have been doing both?

Keeping costs low to save us from further financial damage with a view to making us a much more attractive sell?

Yeah of course. He had to take certain actions but it was to try and sell more than anything else.

[P3te]

Were those clubs trying to survive with keeping costs low so they could be sold?

 

You're clearly missing the major differentiation between what you think (keeping costs low) and reality (stopping the club hemorrhaging money at an Leeds-esque rate).

 

Lerner came in, chased a dream sold to him by the wrong manager to trust, bankrolled some awful signings and contracts (all the while, mind, letting the manager get on with managing and doing his thing and never actually butting in, which most people were very impressed with him for) and then paid the price. Everything since then has been varying degrees of trying to fix that.

 

Lerner has gotten everything right at completely different times, and nothing has managed to line up properly for him, unfortunately.

 

Spent huge sums of money? Check

Trusted a manager completely and kept his nose out of things? Check

Brought in a commercial guy with a proven track record to increase income? Check

Sorted out the training ground with a massive cash injection? Check

Hired an exciting and very promising manager (who ACTUALLY looks like he might deliver)? Check

 

Get all that right at the same time (particularly over the period MON was manager) and you've got a CL side. Unfortunately, he blew it by trusting O'Neill with money far, far too much. It was great for fans at the time, but he was burnt very badly.

 

I'd like him to give it another go to be honest. The grounding is now sound financially again, there's a decent squad to build on, and there's a (seemingly) decent manager in charge. It's like he hit the reset button and we're back to how things were in 2006, albeit with some more heavyweights and FFP to contend with. If he actually manages to get everything to line up for him this time around, should he stay, I'd far rather that than the unknown of a new owner.

[DCJonah]

You're clearly missing the major differentiation between what you think (keeping costs low) and reality (stopping the club hemorrhaging money at an Leeds-esque rate).

Yet we were so desperate to not do a Leeds, we gave huge contracts to bent, nzogbia, Hutton, Ireland and given. And why did we do that? Because we also paid compensation for two completely different managers, who both did poorly and wasted more money.

Lerner came in, chased a dream sold to him by the wrong manager to trust, bankrolled some awful signings and contracts (all the while, mind, letting the manager get on with managing and doing his thing and never actually butting in, which most people were very impressed with him for) and then paid the price.

If the owner looked at the money coming and going out and said '**** it, MON said it will be ok" then he's a bigger fool than I originally thought.

Lerner has gotten everything right at completely different times, and nothing has managed to line up properly for him, unfortunately.

A nice way of saying incompetence is just being unlucky.

I'd like him to give it another go to be honest. The grounding is now sound financially again, there's a decent squad to build on, and there's a (seemingly) decent manager in charge. It's like he hit the reset button and we're back to how things were in 2006, albeit with some more heavyweights and FFP to contend with. If he actually manages to get everything to line up for him this time around, should he stay, I'd far rather that than the unknown of a new owner.

If things became good I'd say fair play to him. But I've seen enough to suggest we're better off and I'm more than happy to take that chance. I seriously doubt the next guy makes me watch anything close to the last 5 years.

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

P3te - you've made some excellent posts and likes aren't enough. I can't be arsed to read the agenda of people who've posted hundreds of times over two profiles, but you've done an excellent job to debate your contrary view.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Morley_crosses_to_Withe

[ozvillafan]

 

Were those clubs trying to survive with keeping costs low so they could be sold?

 

You're clearly missing the major differentiation between what you think (keeping costs low) and reality (stopping the club hemorrhaging money at an Leeds-esque rate).

 

Lerner came in, chased a dream sold to him by the wrong manager to trust, bankrolled some awful signings and contracts (all the while, mind, letting the manager get on with managing and doing his thing and never actually butting in, which most people were very impressed with him for) and then paid the price. Everything since then has been varying degrees of trying to fix that.

 

Lerner has gotten everything right at completely different times, and nothing has managed to line up properly for him, unfortunately.

 

Spent huge sums of money? Check

Trusted a manager completely and kept his nose out of things? Check

Brought in a commercial guy with a proven track record to increase income? Check

Sorted out the training ground with a massive cash injection? Check

Hired an exciting and very promising manager (who ACTUALLY looks like he might deliver)? Check

 

Get all that right at the same time (particularly over the period MON was manager) and you've got a CL side. Unfortunately, he blew it by trusting O'Neill with money far, far too much. It was great for fans at the time, but he was burnt very badly.

 

I'd like him to give it another go to be honest. The grounding is now sound financially again, there's a decent squad to build on, and there's a (seemingly) decent manager in charge. It's like he hit the reset button and we're back to how things were in 2006, albeit with some more heavyweights and FFP to contend with. If he actually manages to get everything to line up for him this time around, should he stay, I'd far rather that than the unknown of a new owner.

 

 

Top post, Pete.

 

Must say - I don't mind him staying around as I think things are starting to fall into place and the knowledge and experience he lacked when he first took over is no longer an issue. The hard lessons and hard work are (seemingly) done - I'd like to see him kick on and capitalise on it.

 

However, I don't like the "better the devil you know" argument. Just as there are worse owners there are also better.

[AVTuco]

Were those clubs trying to survive with keeping costs low so they could be sold?

You're clearly missing the major differentiation between what you think (keeping costs low) and reality (stopping the club hemorrhaging money at an Leeds-esque rate).

 

Lerner came in, chased a dream sold to him by the wrong manager to trust, bankrolled some awful signings and contracts (all the while, mind, letting the manager get on with managing and doing his thing and never actually butting in, which most people were very impressed with him for) and then paid the price. Everything since then has been varying degrees of trying to fix that.

 

Lerner has gotten everything right at completely different times, and nothing has managed to line up properly for him, unfortunately.

 

Spent huge sums of money? Check

Trusted a manager completely and kept his nose out of things? Check

Brought in a commercial guy with a proven track record to increase income? Check

Sorted out the training ground with a massive cash injection? Check

Hired an exciting and very promising manager (who ACTUALLY looks like he might deliver)? Check

 

Get all that right at the same time (particularly over the period MON was manager) and you've got a CL side. Unfortunately, he blew it by trusting O'Neill with money far, far too much. It was great for fans at the time, but he was burnt very badly.

 

I'd like him to give it another go to be honest. The grounding is now sound financially again, there's a decent squad to build on, and there's a (seemingly) decent manager in charge. It's like he hit the reset button and we're back to how things were in 2006, albeit with some more heavyweights and FFP to contend with. If he actually manages to get everything to line up for him this time around, should he stay, I'd far rather that than the unknown of a new owner.

 

Top post, Pete.

 

Must say - I don't mind him staying around as I think things are starting to fall into place and the knowledge and experience he lacked when he first took over is no longer an issue. The hard lessons and hard work are (seemingly) done - I'd like to see him kick on and capitalise on it.

 

However, I don't like the "better the devil you know" argument. Just as there are worse owners there are also better.

I agree, but at the same time I have become more cautious in hoping for a change in ownership (which I already mentioned in another thread, apologies). Any new owner won't do for me any more, as just a few months ago it almost would have. The appointment of Sherwood has changed so much at the club it's astonishing.