The Randy Lerner thread

[Texas_Mike]

Panto_Villan - the most sensible post I have read on here for a long time. You should join in the Barry Bannan thread with your intelligent analysis coz there are some wacko's typing away over there!!!

[Big_John_10]

Smetrov is an example of a poster who is continually stating the opinion that the club will never achieve more than mid-table mediocrity until Lerner starts spending more. Your above post is blaming Lerner for backing the manager too much. He can't win.

Of course he can win. But it's going to take time and its going to take more than just a win the first game of the season.

We've had a truly awful few years in a row which has mainly been down to the decision making of the owner. Forgive me if I'm not out chanting his name because he finally started to do a few things right.

If Ireland had to play our next game and did ok, made a few good passes would you seriously expect people who have completely slagged him off, and rightly so, to do a complete 180 degree turn? Or do you think they'd wait for him to do it a few more times before they completely changed their opinion of them?

There's still no proof that Lerner wants this team to be anything other than one that survives with a wage bill that's cheap. I don't know about others but even though I don't like Lerner I not someone who will never change my mind about him.

I've given him credit and praise for how we've gone about our summer business and for the way we handled the Benteke transfer request. If we continue to do these things I will continue to praise him. Personally I think it would be ridiculous for people who don't rate him to completely change their mind because of one game.

[Panto_Villan]

 

Smetrov is an example of a poster who is continually stating the opinion that the club will never achieve more than mid-table mediocrity until Lerner starts spending more. Your above post is blaming Lerner for backing the manager too much. He can't win.

Of course he can win. But it's going to take time and its going to take more than just a win the first game of the season.

We've had a truly awful few years in a row which has mainly been down to the decision making of the owner. Forgive me if I'm not out chanting his name because he finally started to do a few things right.

If Ireland had to play our next game and did ok, made a few good passes would you seriously expect people who have completely slagged him off, and rightly so, to do a complete 180 degree turn? Or do you think they'd wait for him to do it a few more times before they completely changed their opinion of them?

There's still no proof that Lerner wants this team to be anything other than one that survives with a wage bill that's cheap. I don't know about others but even though I don't like Lerner I not someone who will never change my mind about him.

I've given him credit and praise for how we've gone about our summer business and for the way we handled the Benteke transfer request. If we continue to do these things I will continue to praise him. Personally I think it would be ridiculous for people who don't rate him to completely change their mind because of one game.

 

 

 

You've obviously changed your mind on Lambert so I wasn't singling you out as someone who will always persecute him whatever he did, I was just using your post as an example. However, my previous longer post did point out a number of things that I think he has done well that people appear to give him little or no credit for - for example, the £30m redevelopment of Bodymoor Heath that the club is still reaping the rewards from, the way the club does business, or the way he stumps up tens of millions every year to cover the loss. I was sorta of hoping you'd reply to that post rather than the throwaway one a few posts lower.

 

Which specific decisions are you referring to, though? Alex McLeish was a huge mistake, but he was only one mistake. I think it's a fallacy that he's not backed the club financially, and I think the fact the wages got unsustainable was because he actually backed the manager too much (the thing people are criticising him for not doing). I may have missed some other things, but I don't think he's actually made that many bad decisions.

 

 

 

Panto_Villan - the most sensible post I have read on here for a long time. You should join in the Barry Bannan thread with your intelligent analysis coz there are some wacko's typing away over there!!!

 

I think the Bannan thread is beyond any of us

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

You mean the years where he allowed the spending to reach levels we could never continue at?

Yes, those. They don't count towards the good times then!? I remember them fondly. We had a go at it and it didn't quite work out. I don't sit there under a cloud trying to taint those memorable days with negativity.

[Big_John_10]

You mean the years where he allowed the spending to reach levels we could never continue at?

Yes, those. They don't count towards the good times then!? I remember them fondly. We had a go at it and it didn't quite work out. I don't sit there under a cloud trying to taint those memorable days with negativity.

Don't get me wrong, I loved those years. I really enjoyed them we had some fantastic times.

My point was though that now we know the details behind that period i find it hard to class it as a positive for Lerner. Ultimately it was a mistake, spending with no real plan for the future played a big part in us dropping like a stone.

[Risso]

I wonder how Leeds fans view their 'glory years' under Ridsdale and O'Leary?

[BG_Villa_Fan]

I'm yet to see fans on the stands with 'You're spending too much' signs. Wonder how Southampton fans feel right now, I bet they're pretty happy.

[Big_John_10]

However, my previous longer post did point out a number of things that I think he has done well that people appear to give him little or no credit for - for example, the £30m redevelopment of Bodymoor Heath that the club is still reaping the rewards from, the way the club does business, or the way he stumps up tens of millions every year to cover the loss.

The most important thing in professional football is what's going on with the first team on the pitch. So while that's been awful I see little reason for the owner to be praised.

In terms of bad decisions. Well firstly we spent to a level that we couldn't cope with without any real plan for the future. I class that as a big mistake but it was something we could have recovered from quickly. He then hired houllier which was an awful decision and then he followed it up with one of the worst managerial decisions seen in the premier league years.

Under his ownership we've dropped down behind other teams in terms of revenue and we've dropped down the league table breaking some awful club records on the way.

It's starting to improve but it doesn't make up for what's gone before.

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

I wonder how Leeds fans view their 'glory years' under Ridsdale and O'Leary?

This is silly and you know it Risso. Have we gone the same way as Leeds then!?

[bannedfromHandV]

I wonder how Leeds fans view their 'glory years' under Ridsdale and O'Leary?

 

 

Probably as just that, glory years.

 

Don't really get your point if there even is one....

[Risso]

 

I wonder how Leeds fans view their 'glory years' under Ridsdale and O'Leary?

This is silly and you know it Risso. Have we gone the same way as Leeds then!?

 

 

It was a genuine question, hence the question mark.  I genuinely don't know if they do view it as a price worth paying for all the years in the relative wilderness since.  It's a similar debate to the one above people are having over Martin O'Neill, only of course the outcome isn't as severe.  That's all, wasn't trying to score points.

[NIVillan]

Should Randy not get some credit for accepting something wasnt working and try a different route no matter how painful.

 

Sometimes the hardest thing is to accept you got it wrong.

 

He rolled the dice and we didn't get to the Champions League, but couldn't keep spending the way we had.  

He had to bring us within budget and despite what people claim money was not just cut off.  Unfortunatly we had a couple of missteps in managers.

 

We appear to be on the right road now and one which manager and chairmen are in sync.

[Panto_Villan]

 

The most important thing in professional football is what's going on with the first team on the pitch. So while that's been awful I see little reason for the owner to be praised.

In terms of bad decisions. Well firstly we spent to a level that we couldn't cope with without any real plan for the future. I class that as a big mistake but it was something we could have recovered from quickly. He then hired houllier which was an awful decision and then he followed it up with one of the worst managerial decisions seen in the premier league years.

 

 

Again, I'm not trying to single you out here, as I appreciate you've actually provided some reasons in response, but your first two sentences contradict one another. If the most important thing is how well the team are doing on the pitch, then surely the overspending under MON should be cancelled out? As a genuine question, would you rather that Lerner hadn't given MON that level of money and did more of a Kenwright at Everton style financial straightjacket job? That would come with its own set of risks; relying very heavily on the skills of the manager.

 

Much of the criticism seems to cut both ways - we were challenging for the CL at one point that counts against Randy because he overspent, then we did badly subsequently and it's Randy's fault because he didn't spend enough (I'll admit here that individual posters aren't always stating both of these views at the same time). I don't disagree that he made a bad choice with McLeish but I think Houllier could have turned out well had he not had his health issues - so I'd say there he made one terrible decision and one mediocre one.

 

The point Risso makes is an interesting one - personally, I think people are generally happy with it at the time but much less happy when the crows come home to roost and you have to deal with the financial fallout. I guess it's just human nature, the same reason why people spend their overdrafts.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Panto_Villan

[Big_John_10]

Again, I'm not trying to single you out here, as I appreciate you've actually provided some reasons in response, but your first two sentences contradict one another. If the most important thing is how well the team are doing on the pitch, then surely the overspending under MON should be cancelled out?

Like I said earlier, during that period I was a big fan of Lerner because of what was happening. Now we know more about that period and the knock on effect it's had on the club i can't say that what we did was a positive thing or good decision making from the owner. Just like Risso mentioned about Leeds. Of course they loved getting to a champs league semi but surely now they look back on that period as mistakes made by the owner.

As a genuine question, would you rather that Lerner hadn't given MON that level of money and did more of a Kenwright at Everton style financial straightjacket job?

I liked that he wanted to go for the champions league but there clearly needed to be more of a plan than to just spend with no regard to the future. I actually think getting champions league football wouldn't have solved all our issues in terms of the position we'd got in with wages to revenue.

Much of the criticism seems to cut both ways - we were challenging for the CL at one point that counts against Randy because he overspent, then we did badly subsequently and it's Randy's fault because he didn't spend enough (I'll admit here that individual posters aren't always stating both of these views at the same time).

But being an owner isn't just about spending money. Any idiot with money can spend it. His ownership of the browns has shown how his poor decisions can hold back a club. It's not just about money. I personally think his two managerial decisions cost us more than anything else.

I don't disagree that he made a bad choice with McLeish but I think Houllier could have turned out well had he not had his health issues - so I'd say there he made one terrible decision and one mediocre one.

Disagree completely, houllier was an awful appointment.

Like I said previously, we've broken some awful club records, dropped like a stone and allowed clubs to overtake us in terms of making money. Those things don't happen if the owner is doing a good job.

I like what's happening now and I hope we see the club progress and Lerner shows ambition again but with a more sensible plan.

At the moment I've got no problems with this summer and hopefully I'll one day like him as much as I did when he first bought the club.

[blandy]

I wonder how Leeds fans view their 'glory years' under Ridsdale and O'Leary?

 

Probably similarly to how Pompey view their FA Cup win - they'll remember those times and games with affection for as long as they live. But they'll also rue the profligacy of the owner, and the resultant struggles for survival.

 

I think that Randy didn't go too far with profligate spending, and he didn't bankrupt the club. He consciously "had a go", the attempt didn't work out, quite, for multiple reasons, and we had a bumpy ride afterwards.

 

Randy spent his money, lost it, and continues to spend, albeit more wisely. I think he's learnt the hard way, but he has learnt, and the club is now being run in a way which is good.

[Mantis]

There's still no proof that Lerner wants this team to be anything other than one that survives with a wage bill that's cheap.

 

Doubt we would've got Lambert if that was the case. There isn't really any evidence that Randy wants us to be a club that just survives.

[villabromsgrove]

I'm yet to see fans on the stands with 'You're spending too much' signs. Wonder how Southampton fans feel right now, I bet they're pretty happy.

If I was a Southampton fan I would be excited, but at the same time worried. Portsmouth is a very close neighbour and reminder that small clubs cannot sustain big expenditure. Southampton had a good 30,800 average home crowd last season and if my maths are any where near right they have now spent £35,000,000 on three players, plus added wages of £5,000,000 per season (approx).

 

That's an expenditure of (approx) £1,300 per fan (x 30,800). It's exciting, but potentially disastrous given their size and catchment area. Thank god for Randy's recent pragmatism, at least we are operating within our means these days. 

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

I wonder how Leeds fans view their 'glory years' under Ridsdale and O'Leary?

This is silly and you know it Risso. Have we gone the same way as Leeds then!?

It was a genuine question, hence the question mark. I genuinely don't know if they do view it as a price worth paying for all the years in the relative wilderness since. It's a similar debate to the one above people are having over Martin O'Neill, only of course the outcome isn't as severe. That's all, wasn't trying to score points.

Fair enough. I think they'd remember it fondly, for sure, but they would probably swap that for staying in the PL and not going through a whole load of turmoil.

As for us, I'm okay with how we went about it in those first four years; we gave it a good go and almost made it. The two or three years that followed have been rocky, but I really like where the club is today and I believe we're on the right track again.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Morley_crosses_to_Withe

[Big_John_10]

There's still no proof that Lerner wants this team to be anything other than one that survives with a wage bill that's cheap.

 

Doubt we would've got Lambert if that was the case. There isn't really any evidence that Randy wants us to be a club that just survives.

Really?

Is that not what we did last season? Are we still trying to get the wage bill down? How much backing did Lambert get in January when we needed it?

By the way, right now I'm happy with what we're doing.

[blandy]

There's still no proof that Lerner wants this team to be anything other than one that survives with a wage bill that's cheap.

 

Doubt we would've got Lambert if that was the case. There isn't really any evidence that Randy wants us to be a club that just survives.

Really?

Is that not what we did last season? Are we still trying to get the wage bill down? How much backing did Lambert get in January when we needed it?

By the way, right now I'm happy with what we're doing.

Such evidence as there is (rather than guessing, as we do) doesn't tell us anything about what he wants in terms of achievement, it tells us more about what he is and was capable of - i.e. when he was capable of spending large sums, he did. That suggests 2 things - firstly that he wanted to be more than just survivors - a lot more. We also know his judgement, and that of MO'N mainly, wasn't good in terms of value for money - either in terms of spend v achievement, or in terms of value for money on players and wages (and managers).

Since the world and his own fortunes have changed, he's still bankrolling the club, but the evidence points to the big spending days being over, due to circumstance.

It doesn't tell us what he'd like, particularly, other than that the club needs to support itself, by and large.