Manager Paul Lambert

[Ghost_of_Pongo_Waring]

 

 

I think everyone should just settle down. The priority was staying in the league and not being embroiled in another relegation battle. I know that isn't exactly ambitious but it was the first target. Right now I think we are looking good for achieving that. I think other targets, such as cup runs and more attractive football, should maybe be set for next season. This season has to be about not living as dangerously as we did last season.

 

Obviously this makes terrific sense

 

For me Lambert has done everything asked of him so far, taking over a shambles, completely overhauling the squad, balancing the budget, restoring some pride in the players and all the time whilst safeguarding our PL status.

 

Anyone who thinks we should be challenging for the top 6 or a major trophy at the moment needs a reality check. Our last 38 games would have been good enough for 9th last season - if we can maintain that level of return this season and push on a little in terms of our style of play I will be very happy

 

He didn't take over a shambles and his overhaul of the squad very nearly relegated us.

 

No-one, no-one thinks we should be challenging for top six or winning trophies yet either and we are at this moment in time lying tenth not at the end of this season but having not even reached the Christmas period yet and being tenth at this stage of the season is absolutely no guarantee that we're going to finish there as there is no guarantee that we're going to finish higher or lower than that. 

 

 

 

It was a shambles, we were closer to relegation under McCleish than under Lambert.  His overhaul of the squad saw us finish slightly higher up with slightly more points but more importantly with a base to build from both financially and with the squad.

[Morpheus]

You evolve from a solid base.  But first you must have one and last season we didn't.  Yes we finished the season with a flourish that we haven't continued from (even though pointswise we have...), but you don't want to be in that position again or having to play for your Premier League life.  That's a nervous energy they had; an unhealthy energy borne of the situation they were in.  We are now actually quite hard to beat and we've achieved that for a variety of reasons.  We've also achieved it without our more technically gifted players clicking form-wise.  Westwood, in particular, is key to an expansive attacking game and he has only recently started to show glimpses of what he was like last season.

 

As HH says, the attractive football will come, but the next time we see it, it'll be because of the evolution of the side rather than as a reaction to sitting a place above the dropzone.  I know people roll their eyes when they see words like 'evolution' or 'project' but I'm afraid that's what this is, in the cold light of day.  We are only 18 months into what Lambert is doing and we do still have the youngest Premier League squad bar none.  We have improved in every objective and calculable way over last season while, yes, becoming less entertaining in the short term.  We're on an upward curve in this league though.  We are getting better as a team.  We're doing it quite quickly too.  It's only 6 months since we kept our heads above water and now we're sitting midtable.  Any expectations above the jump we've already made at this stage of the game, to me are unrealistic and unfair.

 

Our aim is not midtable.  We are ALREADY midtable.  And we've done that in a season and a half of almost starting the first team from scratch.  People taking snapshots of the 'here and now' while ignoring where we've come from last season and while not acknowledging the climb we've made are not being reasonable IMO.  To suggest given what he has done here in the manner and time he has done it that Lambert is in some way a limited manager is remarkable to me.  I just can't take it seriously tbh

Just a few questions on your post BOF.

 

Are you explaining our better football last season as being as a result of nervous energy?

 

Secondly, isn't it also taking our current position as a snapshot of our improvement when we've not reached the Christmas period of the season yet?  

[BOF]

Are you explaining our better football last season as being as a result of nervous energy?

Given the position we were in at the time, yes I think the almost-survivalist nature of the football we were playing was that of a team getting themselves out of a hole.

Secondly, isn't it also taking our current position as a snapshot of our improvement when we've not reached the Christmas period of the season yet?

Absolutely not. Quite the opposite actually. Let me explain. I'm trying to get people to not look at where we were or even necessarily where we are, but the direction in which the line of progress is going.

First of all, last season those criticising the club were using the league position to beat Lambert with. Fair enough, it was bad. But their logic was that because we were down there at the time, we would stay down there. This season I've noticed that people who want to criticise Lambert are using the opposite logic. Now it seems to be 'OK we're midtable but will we stay there'. That to me is incurable pessimism. Their previous logic can no longer be used to criticise so they think up a new angle.

Also the 2 different ways of criticising him this season have been thusly

1. "We haven't improved on last season". Thankfully this has all but gone out the window now because it's an indefensible claim that lacks credibility.

2. "We have improved but is this really all we can look forward to?". This is where the 'snapshot versus trend' comes in. I'm saying we're on the way up.

[srsmithusa]

I foolishly and naively hope that all villa fans could agree on a few basics.  (I know, completely unrealistic) But, here goes.

1) The end of last season saw us playing something much more attractive than we have been (much of the time at least) playing this season.

2) The points are better, but the performances are frustrating and painful.

 

I'm bored of quarrelling over the cup being half empty or half full, I'm more interested in why we could play more pleasingly and excitingly last spring than we can now.  What changed?  Why were we fun to watch at the end of last season and regularly painful to watch this season?

 

My guess:  The opposition adjusted in 2 ways.

1) Physically clam down on Benteke.  Hit him in the back early and often.  He gets frustrated and gives up.

2) Close down quickly on our midfielders.  They are young and get nervous and hit poor passes to nobody in particular.

 

Those two adjustments have worked.  I do like Lambert and I do think he will get it sorted, but I don't think that just giving them time and encouragement will be effective.  The solutions lie with an effective team of coaches.  The coaches fixed the CK problem last year (finally) but they need to do it again with these problems.

[Isa]

My guess:  The opposition adjusted in 2 ways.

1) Physically clam down on Benteke.  Hit him in the back early and often.  He gets frustrated and gives up.

2) Close down quickly on our midfielders.  They are young and get nervous and hit poor passes to nobody in particular.

1) The opposition had started doing this towards the end of last season anyway. He didn't 'give up' then and nor should he be doing so now.

2) Being unable to retain possession under pressure is a sign that your team is full of players who just don't possess much footballing ability.

[VillaCas]

 

 

Our last 38 games would have been good enough for 9th last season - if we can maintain that level of return this season and push on a little in terms of our style of play I will be very happy

 

 

.....at this moment in time lying tenth not at the end of this season but having not even reached the Christmas period yet and being tenth at this stage of the season is absolutely no guarantee that we're going to finish there as there is no guarantee that we're going to finish higher or lower than that. 

 

Which bit of "if we can maintain that level of return" are you misunderstanding??

 

Last season 8th to 17th was covered by ten points, so obviously there is no g'tee of where we will finish - it would be nice if we could maintain a top ten position throughtout the season but I imagine there will ups and downs as we progress

 

The only indicator that we can look at is to take the last 38 games and use them as a guide - this would be enough for 9th place last season.

 

So, no there are no guarantees

[srsmithusa]

Thanks Isa, I agree the opposition started with these adjustments last season, and you are right it didn't make Benteke "give up" then, and should not now... but to me, it does look like that's what he's doing, are you seeing something different?

 

I also agree that being unable to retain possession under pressure is often at least, a lack of ability and for some that may be the problem, but not necessarily the only possible explanation.  I think for some it's confidence, experience, vision, and a lack of clear options.

[PieFacE]

I see a lot of people hailing the back end of last season like we we're playing some fantastic football. But we really weren't. As it got to the back end of last season we were playing a lot of the teams around us who were also fighting relegation. This allowed us to play our counter attacking football as they had to play for points. We didn't play teams off the park (apart from Sunderland), a lot of games we're just end to end games which we managed to win. We've hugely improved this season defensively, and the problems were having with attacking now is the same problems we've had since I've been a season ticket holder down Villa Park (Since MON). We just can't break teams down. It's unfair to expect Lambert to improve our philosophies in both defence and attack in 18months of being here. Next season I'd like to see a much improved attacking mentality installed into the squad in the same way we've improved defensively this season. If next season comes and we're still playing the dire football we are now then questions need to be asked. But it's too early to ask those questions now.

[Isa]

Thanks Isa, I agree the opposition started with these adjustments last season, and you are right it didn't make Benteke "give up" then, and should not now... but to me, it does look like that's what he's doing, are you seeing something different?

 

I also agree that being unable to retain possession under pressure is often at least, a lack of ability and for some that may be the problem, but not necessarily the only possible explanation.  I think for some it's confidence, experience, vision, and a lack of clear options.

No I agree to an extent about Benteke but I just don't think that it is down to any change in opposition tactics. The injury obviously hasn't helped but the lack of effort in the past two games especially has been shocking. You can't say for definite that it is down to him not wanting to be here but that is a strong theory.

[VillaChris]

I thought we played really well first half against Liverpool and for 60 minutes against Chelsea until the Benteke sending off changed that game.

 

I really enjoyed watching us for the last 3 months even if it was excoriating to be in a relegation battle.

 

Not so much this season.

[Skruff]

Building a solid defensive side is done easily, building an good attacking side can take a few yers.

[HeyAnty]

I think the manager might just show what he thought of Saturday by dropping Benteke. If he does, I think we can all accept he wasn't exactly delighted with the overall display either himself.

Also, maybe Benteke, like a few others, aren't 100 per cent fit. By taking him out of the team it will a) give him a give up the arse and if he doesn't have to come off the bench then it might improve his physical condition.

Big call to make though.

Big call indeed but I think he should have dropped him for Sunderland and Southampton and brought him back in for Man U. That would have given him a chance to sort out any lingering fitness issues and give him a real incentive to do well in his return game.

[Edit - on 2nd thoughts, bring him back at Fulham because I am going to that game. ]

See ya there. First away game in London since we beat Arsenal under O'Neil. Hope Gabby does the job against Fulham.

[AVTuco]

I foolishly and naively hope that all villa fans could agree on a few basics.  (I know, completely unrealistic) But, here goes.

1) The end of last season saw us playing something much more attractive than we have been (much of the time at least) playing this season.

2) The points are better, but the performances are frustrating and painful.

 

I'm bored of quarrelling over the cup being half empty or half full, I'm more interested in why we could play more pleasingly and excitingly last spring than we can now.  What changed?  Why were we fun to watch at the end of last season and regularly painful to watch this season?

 

My guess:  The opposition adjusted in 2 ways.

1) Physically clam down on Benteke.  Hit him in the back early and often.  He gets frustrated and gives up.

2) Close down quickly on our midfielders.  They are young and get nervous and hit poor passes to nobody in particular.

 

Those two adjustments have worked.  I do like Lambert and I do think he will get it sorted, but I don't think that just giving them time and encouragement will be effective.  The solutions lie with an effective team of coaches.  The coaches fixed the CK problem last year (finally) but they need to do it again with these problems.

I must admit that I don't share the pain so much. It is vital that we get results this year, as many more points than last year as possible. Our young team needs confidence and positive results more than anything. We need to get to a positive cycle that only comes from good results and points. If we play attractive football and lose, it's not going to work.

And actually I would put the success of both of your 'adjustments' down to youth and inexperience. I don't usually buy this argument, but it is just so clear in everything we do. We need time, as has been said numerous times in this thread already.

[Morpheus]

 

Are you explaining our better football last season as being as a result of nervous energy?

Given the position we were in at the time, yes I think the almost-survivalist nature of the football we were playing was that of a team getting themselves out of a hole.

Secondly, isn't it also taking our current position as a snapshot of our improvement when we've not reached the Christmas period of the season yet?

Absolutely not. Quite the opposite actually. Let me explain. I'm trying to get people to not look at where we were or even necessarily where we are, but the direction in which the line of progress is going.

First of all, last season those criticising the club were using the league position to beat Lambert with. Fair enough, it was bad. But their logic was that because we were down there at the time, we would stay down there. This season I've noticed that people who want to criticise Lambert are using the opposite logic. Now it seems to be 'OK we're midtable but will we stay there'. That to me is incurable pessimism. Their previous logic can no longer be used to criticise so they think up a new angle.

Also the 2 different ways of criticising him this season have been thusly

1. "We haven't improved on last season". Thankfully this has all but gone out the window now because it's an indefensible claim that lacks credibility.

2. "We have improved but is this really all we can look forward to?". This is where the 'snapshot versus trend' comes in. I'm saying we're on the way up.

 

Pretty much all of that i disagree with BOF.

 

'Survivalist' football would suggest to me something much more grotesque than was actually played by our team in the run in last season. Our football was cool, calculated, ball to feet and pass and move and certainly not formulated by nervous energy. Thats why all of us, those still full of optimism and those more pessimistic were taken completely by surprise at how well we played as it was such a contrast to the first half of the season and why many of us were so looking forward to this season. I actually think it's an injustice to the players and manager in describing our football during the said period as 'survivalist.'

 

Concerning your second point yes people were worried last year and they had every right to believe that we would stay near the bottom due to the performances in the first half of the season and they ended up being right when we secured our Premiership status with only one game to go. Consequently it's not really using opposite logic or a new angle to criticise at all when we are again playing the same type of football (albeit with more points) that got us into so much trouble last season and when you consider currently so few points separate mid from bottom of the table this season.

 

You have described that view as 'incurable pessimism.' Its actually just realism with an understanding that our present position isn't yet set in stone as we are only approaching the Christmas fixture list and it isn't incurable either if we continue our upward trend or indeed stagnate to where we currently are which would be acceptable to the majority of fans this season. 

Edited December 2, 2013 by Morpheus

[Mantis]

And yet last season "realism" was people pointing out that we were in a relegation battle. This season now it seems some are moving the goal posts. We're not in a relegation battle but that doesn't seem to matter because it isn't "set in stone".

[Chap of Steel]

Lambert has said every player will play a part in this upcoming busy fixture schedule. I wonder who'll be making an appearance that we haven't seen much of yet?

[Morpheus]

And yet last season "realism" was people pointing out that we were in a relegation battle. This season now it seems some are moving the goal posts. We're not in a relegation battle but that doesn't seem to matter because it isn't "set in stone".

Pot and kettle Mantis pot and kettle and before you ask just read some of your posts last season concerning relegation so it's more than a bit rich you complaining about moving goal posts.

[Shaw_nuff]

IMO, the main improvement (same time this year to last) is our luck. Last year we had none up until Xmas. This year we've had a fair bit (apart from Chelsea away).

 

If we carry on playing like this, but the luck deserts us, we are in the doo dah, because it's woeful stuff.

 

I really want Lambert to work some magic as I want him to succeed here, but I'm really just sitting back and watching what happens, game by game, with the sort of interest you give a car crash. I hope the training is different to the match play.

[Butterfingers]

I honestly think VillaTalk has reached an all-time low with some of the comments on this thread.

How disappointing for you. Maybe other internet forums are taking a more mature and balanced approach and may warrant more time and attention?

Are you a full shilling?

I'm beginning to think you argue & display negativity just for the sake of it-Or maybe to attract attention.

There's 4 teams in this league who are light years ahead of us. There's another 3 who are miles ahead of us. Then there's Newcastle & Southampton who are currently better than us. That's 9 places taken care of. We're 11th. What did you expect at this stage? A 6 point lead at the top of the table?

Any suggestion of sacking the manager is indeed bringing the credibility of the board down to idiotic levels. Do you really, in your wildest dreams think that there's anyone out there who could come in after McLeish & do any better on the shoestring budget that Lambert has had to operate with?

You talk a good game-Pity you don't seem able to or prepared to attempt to grasp what is involved in competing in a competitive league. It doesn't matter what level you play at, be it the Premier League or the Brinny Ear under 15's, there will always be a marked difference in the quality of football played by the top 2 or 3 sides than that played at mid table level.

Nobody is saying we should settle for mid table but this is where we are at present, after 3 successive relegation battles. Nobody goes out with it in mind to loose & none of the coaching staff urge the players to play unattractive football. Professional football has an emphasis on results & 1 man is charged with obtaining them. If you want guaranteed entertainment, try the opera or the Xfactor final. We could have won 2-0 on Saturday & you'd still be moaning (as the Cardiff result proved)

[Ghost_of_Pongo_Waring]

IMO, the main improvement (same time this year to last) is our luck. Last year we had none up until Xmas. This year we've had a fair bit (apart from Chelsea away).

 

If we carry on playing like this, but the luck deserts us, we are in the doo dah, because it's woeful stuff.

 

I really want Lambert to work some magic as I want him to succeed here, but I'm really just sitting back and watching what happens, game by game, with the sort of interest you give a car crash. I hope the training is different to the match play.

 

Have we been lucky, really?

 

Okore getting injured and out for the season. Benteke in a fine run of scoring, then gets injured and struggles to find form or fitness.

 

Gabby playing through injury and then missing games through injury. Weimann, Delph and Luna out through injury. We're not even upto Xmas and we've played quite a few games with three or four key players missing.

 

We may not be playing great football but we have cut out the defensive mistakes, to a large degree, and thats not down to luck.

 

Also it's not beyond the realms of possibility that when the majority of these key players are back to speed that our game will improve.