Manager Paul Lambert

[Isa]

It's funny how often fans level the 'playing players out of position' accusation at the manager.

Every fan forum I read has posters making this claim about their manager.

Playing Sylla where he was on Monday, was out of position. Sitting high up in the away end I could not figure out what the hell our formation was. It was like a 4 -3-1LM 2. Sylla is good at tackling and passing the ball on to the likes of Westwood and Delph, what he's not good at is trying to thread balls through to Benteke.

I won't get in to a debate where one pretends to be a better football manager than another. What I will say is the hawthorns doesn't have a 'high up'!

But the fact that we were so poor until we changed from our starting formation means that you don't have to be a 'football manager' to come to the conclusion that SIT has.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Isa

[vandaq]

damn you guys talk like its hard to find talent for 1 mill 

[terrytini]

 

 

It's funny how often fans level the 'playing players out of position' accusation at the manager.

Every fan forum I read has posters making this claim about their manager.

 

Playing Sylla where he was on Monday, was out of position. Sitting high up in the away end I could not figure out what the hell our formation was. It was like a 4 -3-1LM 2. Sylla is good at tackling and passing the ball on to the likes of Westwood and Delph, what he's not good at is trying to thread balls through to Benteke.

I won't get in to a debate where one pretends to be a better football manager than another. What I will say is the hawthorns doesn't have a 'high up'!

 

Ahhhh....even wallowing around in their 'stands' is high up ....remember ?? Highest ground in England and all that ?

[brommy]

It's funny how often fans level the 'playing players out of position' accusation at the manager.

Every fan forum I read has posters making this claim about their manager.

 

Playing Sylla where he was on Monday, was out of position. Sitting high up in the away end I could not figure out what the hell our formation was. It was like a 4 -3-1LM 2. Sylla is good at tackling and passing the ball on to the likes of Westwood and Delph, what he's not good at is trying to thread balls through to Benteke.

I won't get in to a debate where one pretends to be a better football manager than another. What I will say is the hawthorns doesn't have a 'high up'!

Ahhhh....even wallowing around in their 'stands' is high up ....remember ?? Highest ground in England and all that ?

Probably the boggies best claim to fame.

[brommy]

It's funny how often fans level the 'playing players out of position' accusation at the manager.

Every fan forum I read has posters making this claim about their manager.

Playing Sylla where he was on Monday, was out of position. Sitting high up in the away end I could not figure out what the hell our formation was. It was like a 4 -3-1LM 2. Sylla is good at tackling and passing the ball on to the likes of Westwood and Delph, what he's not good at is trying to thread balls through to Benteke.

I won't get in to a debate where one pretends to be a better football manager than another. What I will say is the hawthorns doesn't have a 'high up'!

But the fact that we were so poor until we changed from our starting formation means that you don't have to be a 'football manager' to come to the conclusion that SIT has.

I don't get too hung up on formations either. I don't know what ratio of importance should be placed on the formation versus how the individual players perform on the day. Also, I've no doubt a football manager thinks certain formations suit certain opponents but whether the players carry that out correctly is another matter.

[Kwan]

I hate some of his formations. That's my biggest critique of him is that he focuses way too much on whether or not a player did well the previous game and tries to slot him in regardless. Just because a certain formation worked once doesn't mean it will work the next time. I think PL is a much bigger believer in work ethos and player morale than instilling a certain play style or tactical attack.

But I attribute a lot of this to lack of depth and injuries. As soon as am important player goes down, it is clear we are lacking anything substantial on the bench.

That doesmt excuse all his personel decisions. I still think he can find a way to use the available players for a formation that works. But, in the long run, I don't think it'll matter much. Having players believing in each other and having an overall feel of the club is more important imo than what formation were playing today

[SikhInTrinity]

 

 

It's funny how often fans level the 'playing players out of position' accusation at the manager.

Every fan forum I read has posters making this claim about their manager.

 

Playing Sylla where he was on Monday, was out of position. Sitting high up in the away end I could not figure out what the hell our formation was. It was like a 4 -3-1LM 2. Sylla is good at tackling and passing the ball on to the likes of Westwood and Delph, what he's not good at is trying to thread balls through to Benteke.

I won't get in to a debate where one pretends to be a better football manager than another. What I will say is the hawthorns doesn't have a 'high up'!

 

 

I'm not pretending to be a football manager, but from where I was you could see the way players were positioned, our right side was non-existent. I like Lambert however his tactics in that first half were dreadful and he should be questioned on it IMO.

[SikhInTrinity]

 

 

 

 

It's funny how often fans level the 'playing players out of position' accusation at the manager.

Every fan forum I read has posters making this claim about their manager.

Playing Sylla where he was on Monday, was out of position. Sitting high up in the away end I could not figure out what the hell our formation was. It was like a 4 -3-1LM 2. Sylla is good at tackling and passing the ball on to the likes of Westwood and Delph, what he's not good at is trying to thread balls through to Benteke.

I won't get in to a debate where one pretends to be a better football manager than another. What I will say is the hawthorns doesn't have a 'high up'!

But the fact that we were so poor until we changed from our starting formation means that you don't have to be a 'football manager' to come to the conclusion that SIT has.

I don't get too hung up on formations either. I don't know what ratio of importance should be placed on the formation versus how the individual players perform on the day. Also, I've no doubt a football manager thinks certain formations suit certain opponents but whether the players carry that out correctly is another matter.

 

 

It was no coincidence last season are best spell of form came when Lambert stuck with a formation and a set of players. Playing 3 CM's with a LM and no right side is asking for trouble.

[mykeyb]

IMHO we're not in danger of going down and I think it's fair to say we're not in 'danger' of challenging the CL places. So what Barry would likely have done is move us a few spots up the league. He might be the difference between 8th and 10th. 

 

Its more really than he can offer more than some of the "squad" players we have brought in who are still learning the ropes. Yes they might not learn as quickly playing 10 minutes here and 15 minutes there but thats what happens when you buy potential rather than ability.

 

8th and 10th isnt that great 16th and 18th is a little different (not that I think we will go down) but a few injuries and we are then needing the players with potential to step up maybe not in the best environment.

[brommy]

It's funny how often fans level the 'playing players out of position' accusation at the manager.

Every fan forum I read has posters making this claim about their manager.

 

Playing Sylla where he was on Monday, was out of position. Sitting high up in the away end I could not figure out what the hell our formation was. It was like a 4 -3-1LM 2. Sylla is good at tackling and passing the ball on to the likes of Westwood and Delph, what he's not good at is trying to thread balls through to Benteke.

I won't get in to a debate where one pretends to be a better football manager than another. What I will say is the hawthorns doesn't have a 'high up'!

 

I'm not pretending to be a football manager, but from where I was you could see the way players were positioned, our right side was non-existent. I like Lambert however his tactics in that first half were dreadful and he should be questioned on it IMO.

Could it be the players were straying from instruction, depending on how they were reading the game at the time. It seems that it only takes 10 yards for one formation to look like another.

On another note, after a game where many predicted a loss, why are many so focussed on the manner we went behind and not equally on the manner we fought back? Formations and tactics included, it appears to me that the game hung on individual errors and then being able to get 30 minutes out of some of our best players returning from injury/illness.

[SikhInTrinity]

 

 

 

 

It's funny how often fans level the 'playing players out of position' accusation at the manager.

Every fan forum I read has posters making this claim about their manager.

 

Playing Sylla where he was on Monday, was out of position. Sitting high up in the away end I could not figure out what the hell our formation was. It was like a 4 -3-1LM 2. Sylla is good at tackling and passing the ball on to the likes of Westwood and Delph, what he's not good at is trying to thread balls through to Benteke.

I won't get in to a debate where one pretends to be a better football manager than another. What I will say is the hawthorns doesn't have a 'high up'!

 

I'm not pretending to be a football manager, but from where I was you could see the way players were positioned, our right side was non-existent. I like Lambert however his tactics in that first half were dreadful and he should be questioned on it IMO.

Could it be the players were straying from instruction, depending on how they were reading the game at the time. It seems that it only takes 10 yards for one formation to look like another.

On another note, after a game where many predicted a loss, why are many so focussed on the manner we went behind and not equally on the manner we fought back? Formations and tactics included, it appears to me that the game hung on individual errors and then being able to get 30 minutes out of some of our best players returning from injury/illness.

 

 

I think the comeback was great, not many times you come back from 2 goals down away from home in a local derby too. Lambert deserves credit for changing it at the right time, think many questioned why not change it at H/T, but could you imagine the confidence of the players if he dragged them off at half time, he slowly wanted to get a foothold in the game and then bring on the key players which then changed the game. I think he has a nucleus there for a really good team, but just needs to find the right blend and set-up.

[Morpheus]

 

Or to put it another way.

 

First 25 games, average 0.84 points per game, equating to 32 per season - or second/third bottom.

Second 25 games, average 1.4 points per game, or 53 points per season - or 8th.  Wouldn't 8th be a good season ?

 

Or match equivalent games against equivalent teams - better

Or match same stage of season reagrdless of opposition - better.

 

Statisticians amongst you will be interested in his 10 game rolling points average, every 10 games from the beginning of last season.  For a long while it was at 0.9, has risen as high as 1.7, and is currently 1.2, with a very steady, slow, upward trend.  Importantly a shift from 0.9 points a game to 1.1 points per game is worth 8 points a season - as a minimum  his rolling average is now always at least 42 points.  Until 5 games ago his rolling average was between 1.4 and 1.7 points per game for 14 games (i.e. between 53 and 65 points for the season) - not suprising we couldn't maintain that - especially with up to 6 or 7 first choce players injured and games against all the Top 10.

 

So whether people like it or not (incredible really, you would think everyone would want to beleive something so positive) we actually are improving.

 

Many many clubs get a new Manager and start off well then decline.  We got one who has steadily improved.  The defence conceedes less. We lose less.  We remain unbeaten more.

 

An argument over performances is a different issue, but as for whether PL is improving the results of the Club, yes he clearly is. That is not subjective.

 

Then there is the subjective stuff.  Bent, Warnock, Collins, Ireland, etc etc - which one is it that is setting the League alight, remind me...oh yeah....none of them.

 

Then the question of his buys - one or two do not seem to have developed.  But has KEA ? Has Vlaar ?  Has Westwood ? Has Benteke ?

 

Is Delph a better player ?  Guzan ?  Even Clarke.  Definitely Baker.  Does Bacuna look a reasonable buy ?  Gabby getting back to his best ?

 

They are all subjective and people may well feel negative about some but if you add the actual statistics to what some  - myself - would say is promise from the majority of purchases and retainees, to the obviously more sure footed financial status, then YES, we are improving, NO PL is not a messiah, but we are on an upward curve.

 

Like everyone a bit more actual good football would be welcome  - pretty sure he knows that too -  but the League is full of stories of Teams who played a bit and ended up relegated or bankrupt.

 

Under PL we will be neither and there is plenty of reason for those that want to think so to consider he has the nous, the staff, the ideas, the philosophy, that will continue an upward journey.

 

For some to suggest we are deluded is baseless.  You may find reasons to fault him - look at some Gunners fans with Wenger so PL has no chance - but you can hardly say those that support him have no or few grounds for so doing.

Excellent, will be conviniently ignored by some.

 

Eh, nope.

[Stevo985]

 

 

Or to put it another way.

 

First 25 games, average 0.84 points per game, equating to 32 per season - or second/third bottom.

Second 25 games, average 1.4 points per game, or 53 points per season - or 8th.  Wouldn't 8th be a good season ?

 

Or match equivalent games against equivalent teams - better

Or match same stage of season reagrdless of opposition - better.

 

Statisticians amongst you will be interested in his 10 game rolling points average, every 10 games from the beginning of last season.  For a long while it was at 0.9, has risen as high as 1.7, and is currently 1.2, with a very steady, slow, upward trend.  Importantly a shift from 0.9 points a game to 1.1 points per game is worth 8 points a season - as a minimum  his rolling average is now always at least 42 points.  Until 5 games ago his rolling average was between 1.4 and 1.7 points per game for 14 games (i.e. between 53 and 65 points for the season) - not suprising we couldn't maintain that - especially with up to 6 or 7 first choce players injured and games against all the Top 10.

 

So whether people like it or not (incredible really, you would think everyone would want to beleive something so positive) we actually are improving.

 

Many many clubs get a new Manager and start off well then decline.  We got one who has steadily improved.  The defence conceedes less. We lose less.  We remain unbeaten more.

 

An argument over performances is a different issue, but as for whether PL is improving the results of the Club, yes he clearly is. That is not subjective.

 

Then there is the subjective stuff.  Bent, Warnock, Collins, Ireland, etc etc - which one is it that is setting the League alight, remind me...oh yeah....none of them.

 

Then the question of his buys - one or two do not seem to have developed.  But has KEA ? Has Vlaar ?  Has Westwood ? Has Benteke ?

 

Is Delph a better player ?  Guzan ?  Even Clarke.  Definitely Baker.  Does Bacuna look a reasonable buy ?  Gabby getting back to his best ?

 

They are all subjective and people may well feel negative about some but if you add the actual statistics to what some  - myself - would say is promise from the majority of purchases and retainees, to the obviously more sure footed financial status, then YES, we are improving, NO PL is not a messiah, but we are on an upward curve.

 

Like everyone a bit more actual good football would be welcome  - pretty sure he knows that too -  but the League is full of stories of Teams who played a bit and ended up relegated or bankrupt.

 

Under PL we will be neither and there is plenty of reason for those that want to think so to consider he has the nous, the staff, the ideas, the philosophy, that will continue an upward journey.

 

For some to suggest we are deluded is baseless.  You may find reasons to fault him - look at some Gunners fans with Wenger so PL has no chance - but you can hardly say those that support him have no or few grounds for so doing.

Excellent, will be conviniently ignored by some.

 

Eh, nope.

 

Guilty conscience?

[Morpheus]

Well it was nice to get up this morning and see my post was so well received by so many, (including one or two suprises !) as it suggests PL will continue to be given the time he needs to make a real difference at our Club.

 

I dont have much to add  but would respond to a couple of the points made above by Morpheus - although not a lot, because I fear it is going over old ground.

 

You correctly mention that our improvement is against a low baseline.  But it is still an ongoing improvement.  Also, you are entering a hazy area there, because although the low baseline came about UNDER PL, it doen't necessarily follow that he caused it.  Many would argue we were on a massive downward spiral for a considerable time before hand.  It could easily be argued those depths could have been hit regardless - it isn't about specific results but those of us at Chelsea under MON who saw the walloping we got (and I speak as a fan of the MON years largely) were not overly suprised when it happened again.  Whether PL's drastic action in sacking the First Team added to, or was irrelevant to, the initial drop, is debatable.  In any event, I counter that criticism regarding the baseline by saying I dont consider it entirely down to PL, whereas the subsequent improvement clearly is so.

 

The other main subject you refer to is the players.  Yes I touched on a few random examples where I think PL has had a positive impact - I could add others.  Fair enough, you think Gabby would have got better anyway, and make the point several times that some of our best players are not PL's buys.

 

I dont see much point going there too much, as it is way into the realms of personal opinions, and I tried largely to concerntrate on provable realities.

 

All I would say is that whether you think any Manager may have acheived those improvements, OUR Manager actually has, so that is good isn't it ? (For example neither Gabby or Delph looked up to much in the preceeding seasons, but they clearly do now).  Also it is important to bear in mind that whilst he may not have bought some of them, it was clearly him who decided who to keep, and his decisions in respect of Guzan, Delph, Clarke, Gabby etc, seem pretty good ones.

Yes it could be argued that Lambert didn't cause last season's flirtation with relegation as it could be argued that any manager relegating a club didn't have enough time to turn it around but it was Lambert's choice was it not to replace experienced Premiership players with inexperienced lower league and foreign players not used to the rigours of the Premiership immediately rather than on a gradual basis. It was his decision was it not to play a system that clearly wasn't suitable to the players available which in turn broke all the wrong records for our club and wasn't it his signings that very nearly helped to relegate the club and are still producing dire football. So it's not really such a 'hazy area' after all when you consider that probably the worst manager this club has ever had didn't come as close to relegating us as Lambert did.

 

You also state that Gabby hasn't 'looked up to much in the preceding seasons' and you've implied that he has gotten better under Lambert. Really?

 

Gabby during his career in the first team has blown hot and cold concerning scoring and it has been this inconsistency which has blighted his career. He wasn't a consistent goal scorer under Lambert last season and before his injury he has repeated that this season again so there's no evidence at all to suggest that Gabby has improved under Lambert. He has been the same as he has always been.

 

Delph i agree is a slightly more grey area as he has been injured for most of his time with us but now i believe his quality would have shone through whatever the manager.

 

Lambert's decision to keep those players you have mentioned doesn't really come down to some spectacular managerial decision does it. Firstly have we had any offers for the said players? I could be wrong but didn't Lambert say in the last window his phone wasn't ringing to sign any of our players? Secondly as an ordinary layman on the street, considering our squad, which players would you have kept while working to a limited budget even if we'd had offers for them? You see my point?

 

It might well be that i'm being a tad too cynical but i do feel that there's been too much 'Blue Sky' thinking nourished through claret and blue specs at our improvement this season when you consider our overall performances. Yes we've more points than at this stage last season and that indeed, on the face of it, constitutes an improvement, but i'm going to wait a while longer before actually believing that we've turned the corner.  

[BOF]

Something else to add to the fact that we seem to be built of sterner stuff this season.

We have yet to drop a single point from winning positions this season. If we take the lead, we win. Seemples. Granted, it's 'only' 4 games and 4 wins but still. We're the best in 'points gained from losing positions' and the best in 'points lost from winning positions'.

Something to bear in mind for Saturday.

[Mantis]

As has already been excellently laid out by certain other members - we have improved massively results wise, it's not even up for debate. Yes the football isn't great but you can't have everything straight away. You'd tightening up the defence and generally looking tougher to beat combined with improved results would placate some people for a little while but clearly not.

[Isa]

Something else to add to the fact that we seem to be built of sterner stuff this season.We have yet to drop a single point from winning positions this season. If we take the lead, we win. Seemples. Granted, it's 'only' 4 games and 4 wins but still. We're the best in 'points gained from losing positions' and the best in 'points lost from winning positions'.Something to bear in mind for Saturday.

No doubt we will squander a three-goal lead at the weekend now!

[Mantis]

Surprisingly we didn't manage to do that last season on the odd occasion that we were 3 or more goals ahead. Cost me money that it did, not that I was complaining.

 

Of course, I made that back and then some when we kept on dropping two goal leads. What was it, 3 times we did that last season?

Edited November 27, 2013 by Mantis

[samjp26]

On this exact date last season we had scored 11 goals, conceded 22 goals and gained 13 points.

 

This year we've scored 13 goals, conceded only 14 goals and have 15 points.

 

So we're 2 points up and our goal difference is up by +10 from this point last season. We've scored more goals, conceded FAR less and we have gained more points. We've improved and whether our football has been pleasing to the eye or not is subjective, in terms of facts our defence and attack are both actually better than they were before.

Edited November 27, 2013 by samjp26

[SikhInTrinity]

On this exact date last season we had scored 11 goals, conceded 22 goals and gained 13 points.

 

This year we've scored 13 goals, conceded only 14 goals and have 15 points.

 

So we're 2 points up and our goal difference is up by +10 from this point last season. We've scored more goals, conceded FAR less and we have gained more points. We've improved and whether our football has been pleasing to the eye or not is subjective, in terms of facts our defence and attack are both actually better than they were before.

 

I'd also add our run in was probably easier last season, if you consider that we faced Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs in a week.