blandy Posted November 5, 2012 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2012 trolling ... No just showing we can all play games The trolling that I guessed at was you saying that the BNP was the "labour supporters moving towards their natural roots in the BNP" The BNP is not the natural roots of Labour supporters and you know it. As Peter, Chindie and Bicks have said, the BNP will try and gather support from people who are economically struggling in poor areas where there are high levels of non-white people, or near those areas. Aside from the BNP disintegrating anyway, the point as you surely recognise is that extremists and racists have always tried to (and partly succeeded) in getting support from people who feel they are hard done by under the status quo. To say that people's roots (whatever party they normally voted for) are in the racist BNP looks like straight -off trolling/PFE - posting something you know to be untrue for effect - you even 'fess up to "playing games". Posting this as an individual, not a moderator, I think your posts are generally interesting and fair minded, but that kind of stuff is just lowering your normal genial and fair standards. By the way much (not all) anti BNP and anti racism stuff is from Labour and left wing people generally. It always has been. Cheap shot. Not worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 5, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted November 5, 2012 If the core BNP support would vote Conservative over Labour then how come BNP support is stronger in Labour areas (i.e. the north) than in Conservative areas (the south)? The BNP have more in common with old Labour than the Conservatives. Not much in common, but still more. The people more likely to subscribe to racist ideology are ones that will come from similar backgrounds to those supporting Labour. There isn't necessarily a connection between being a Labour supporter and then turning to the BNP. It is simply that the demographic base for such ideologies overlaps - deprived areas, working/lower class, etc etc. The difference is, the Labour supporters chose to chase a cause with the common man at it's forefront (allegedly), and the BNP supporters chose to blame their strife on other races, foreigners and so on. The same can't be said of the Conservative heartlands. Generally, BNP fans that would traditionally vote Conservative are thinner on the ground simply because there's nothing forcing them to make a choice, they're just morons as opposed to morons looking for an easy hate figure for their worries. There is a lower proportion of people in the South, generally, who are deprived hence the lower general BNP supporting population. This also explains why the BNP's support flourishes when things get to shit - more morons get squeezed into looking for blame and take an easy answer. Edit - Of course all of this is simply stereotyping but the gist is bang on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 5, 2012 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2012 If the core BNP support would vote Conservative over Labour then how come BNP support is stronger in Labour areas (i.e. the north) than in Conservative areas (the south)? The BNP have more in common with old Labour than the Conservatives. Not much in common, but still more. No they really don't. BNP policies aren't their real policies, you only have to see videos of Griffin meeting the KKK and other white supremacist organisations around the world to see through that. They do try to draw their support from Labour but they are as far removed from Labour, Old Labour as is possible to get, they are their antithesis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 The people more likely to subscribe to racist ideology are ones that will come from similar backgrounds to those supporting Labour. There isn't necessarily a connection between being a Labour supporter and then turning to the BNP. It is simply that the demographic base for such ideologies overlaps - deprived areas, working/lower class, etc etc. The difference is, the Labour supporters chose to chase a cause with the common man at it's forefront (allegedly), and the BNP supporters chose to blame their strife on other races, foreigners and so on. The same can't be said of the Conservative heartlands. Generally, BNP fans that would traditionally vote Conservative are thinner on the ground simply because there's nothing forcing them to make a choice, they're just morons as opposed to morons looking for an easy hate figure for their worries. There is a lower proportion of people in the South, generally, who are deprived hence the lower general BNP supporting population. This also explains why the BNP's support flourishes when things get to shit - more morons get squeezed into looking for blame and take an easy answer. There is still depravity in the south. Less so than the north obviously but it's not like there are no poor people down here that are looking for scapegoats for their troubles. No they really don't. BNP policies aren't their real policies, you only have to see videos of Griffin meeting the KKK and other white supremacist organisations around the world to see through that. They do try to draw their support from Labour but they are as far removed from Labour, Old Labour as is possible to get, they are their antithesis I never said they were alike, just that the BNP have more in common with old Labour than the Tories, mainly economic policies. The BNP are further left on the economy than Labour these days. Again, this isn't to say they are that alike because there really isn't a major party that is anywhere near the BNP on the whole. Socially the BNP have virtually nothing in common with any of the major parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 5, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted November 5, 2012 There is still depravity in the south. Less so than the north obviously but it's not like there are no poor people down here that are looking for scapegoats for their troubles. Really? I'd never have guessed. I'd have thought all those people in shitty parts of London were just doing it to make a statement. People vote for Labour in the South, just like people vote for Conservatives north of Watford. IIRC the BNP's past lies in the North, the National Front grew in the North and it ingratiated itself into political culture in the North where it's roots where, it's main rise followed the squeeze of that region's working class in the 70s. The same isn't true of the South. The South has also been less 'affected by immigration for the common man' (London apart, but even that is somewhat of a special case) than the North, making the correlation between the North and BNP more obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 If nothing else, hopefully this constructive discussion will prevent more objectional postings on this forum that aim to explicitly link UKIP and BNP supporters. Wanting the UK to independent doesn't make you a fascist, a racist or a *gasp* "little Englander". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 The trolling that I guessed at was you saying that the BNP was the "labour supporters moving towards their natural roots in the BNP" The BNP is not the natural roots of Labour supporters and you know it. As Peter, Chindie and Bicks have said, the BNP will try and gather support from people who are economically struggling in poor areas where there are high levels of non-white people, or near those areas. Aside from the BNP disintegrating anyway, the point as you surely recognise is that extremists and racists have always tried to (and partly succeeded) in getting support from people who feel they are hard done by under the status quo. To say that people's roots (whatever party they normally voted for) are in the racist BNP looks like straight -off trolling/PFE - posting something you know to be untrue for effect - you even 'fess up to "playing games". Posting this as an individual, not a moderator, I think your posts are generally interesting and fair minded, but that kind of stuff is just lowering your normal genial and fair standards. By the way much (not all) anti BNP and anti racism stuff is from Labour and left wing people generally. It always has been. Cheap shot. Not worthy. that's fair enough Pete , it's just I get fed up with all this Little Englander stuff that gets thrown about at Tory voters and reacted ... you know my style of posting I tend to wade in with my size 8's every now and then , the Northern / BNP stereotype is of course no more true than the Evil uncaring Tory voter stereotype Interestingly it did provoke a reaction , though not necessarily the one I was expecting , in that there has been a good discussion going on , not necessarily agreeing with me , but not totally shooting my "argument " down with a Browning .50 Cal either ... tbh I wish more discussions could be like this ( and yes guilty as charged before anyone says it ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 5, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted November 5, 2012 It would be nice if the political threads, well... the domestic political threads, really... could be less tedious reads. When I do poke my head in one these days (for a long time I just didn't bother - they were infuriating) there does seem to be a particularly grim atmosphere to things, the way arguments are made really don't show any involved in a particularly good light, in either trench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I try to learn a little from the bolitics threads and I dislike the snide atmosphere regularly displayed. There's enough of that atmosphere in on topic. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 It would be nice if the political threads, well... the domestic political threads, really... could be less tedious reads. When I do poke my head in one these days (for a long time I just didn't bother - they were infuriating) there does seem to be a particularly grim atmosphere to things, the way arguments are made really don't show any involved in a particularly good light, in either trench. oh I agree , but in some cases there doesn't appear to be any desire to discuss and then tit for tat ensues ( and yes I know i'm one of the guilty people here , I'm the tat rather than the tit ). Someone pointed out to me today that the "New Labour party Leader" thread has 71 posts by one poster with 50 references to the Tory Party in them .... and yet there seems to be some annoyance / outrage (whatever is the best phrase) when the Tory /Lib thread has a reference to Labour in it The NHS gif was just one of many Tory party = bad / corrupt / snout in the trough type posts in the thread ..but simple research showed actually they are all at it ( though the Libs less so it appears) I vote Tory but I'm not so blind as to see where they are going wrong , I'll happily discuss it if the post doesn't involve "Gideon" , " ideological" " evil" "tax dodgers" and all the other silly stuff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 It would be nice if the political threads, well... the domestic political threads, really... could be less tedious reads. When I do poke my head in one these days (for a long time I just didn't bother - they were infuriating) there does seem to be a particularly grim atmosphere to things, the way arguments are made really don't show any involved in a particularly good light, in either trench. Chindie you are spot on and I feel pretty much the same. I am sick to the back teeth of everytime I look in the ConDem thread there is a comment there on something they are doing and its "oh but Labour did so and so" when they were in power as if someone how that makes it all OK then and two wrongs make a right. Its very rare the actual issues are discussed without massive deflection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 There is still depravity in the south. Indeed there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 5, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted November 5, 2012 Chindie you are spot on and I feel pretty much the same. I am sick to the back teeth of everytime I look in the ConDem thread there is a comment there on something they are doing and its "oh but Labour did so and so" when they were in power as if someone how that makes it all OK then and two wrongs make a right. Its very rare the actual issues are discussed without massive deflection. The thing is Mark, the opposite is true too. Neither side in those threads comes out smelling of roses. A lot of tit gets thrown against the tat from the opposition. The debate then devolves into an unreadable mess that you can't reply to even if you wanted simply because it would be futile - the core issue is lost and it falls to being about Labour or the Tories rather than the issue at hand, making the whole thing a pointless endeavour. And in many cases even if you did care for the pointless partisan stuff, the... tone, manner, style of argument in some cases is... well, poisonous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 The thing is Mark, the opposite is true too. Neither side in those threads comes out smelling of roses. A lot of tit gets thrown against the tat from the opposition. The debate then devolves into an unreadable mess that you can't reply to even if you wanted simply because it would be futile - the core issue is lost and it falls to being about Labour or the Tories rather than the issue at hand, making the whole thing a pointless endeavour. And in many cases even if you did care for the pointless partisan stuff, the... tone, manner, style of argument in some cases is... well, poisonous. I agree and I'd say that about sums it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Chindie you are spot on and I feel pretty much the same. I am sick to the back teeth of everytime I look in the ConDem thread there is a comment there on something they are doing and its "oh but Labour did so and so" when they were in power as if someone how that makes it all OK then and two wrongs make a right. Its very rare the actual issues are discussed without massive deflection. Well yes but No In some instances what Labour did is actually relevant to the matter in hand , ie Brown and the over spending is related to the current deficit program , Besides which if people can still bring up Thatcher in the topic then I'm sure we can bring up Brown / Blair :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Well yes but No In some instances what Labour did is actually relevant to the matter in hand , ie Brown and the over spending is related to the current deficit program , And when that is the case and it is relevant then fair enough but you know as well as I do that it is very often simply not the case and instead of answering the point raised about a current issue it is deflected on to something totally unrelated that happened in the past. Like I said it is trying to justify a wrong being done now by bringing up a past one by the other side as if that makes it all right when in fact it simply doesn't and adds absolutely nothing to the debate. In fact in most cases it stops all debate and turns the thread in to a farce something this one will turn into if we continue to go off topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 An when that is the case and it is relevant then fair enough but you know as well as I do that it is very often simply not the case and instead of answering the point raised about a current issue it is deflected onto to something totally unrelated that happened in the past. Like I said it is trying to justify a wrong being done now by bringing up a past one by the other side as if that makes it all right when in fact it simply doesn't and adds absolutely nothing to the debate. In fact in most cases it stops all debate and turns the thread in to a farce something this one will turn into if we continue tp go off topic Like saying "all Tories are w**kers" or similar, as you have done on many occasions? Civilising VT political debates is a great idea, it just needs those partisan maniacs to be told to chill out when they get all frothy. We're all grown ups and there is no reason why we can't pull it off. OT will be a much better place for it because smart and interesting people will re-engage. We're allowed to disagree without being dicks about it. I'll go first and pledge not to be a dick. Who's with me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I'll go first and pledge not to be a dick. Who's with me? Me .... Long as your not drinking ghey cocktails :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Like saying "all Tories are w**kers" or similar, as you have done on many occasions? Civilising VT political debates is a great idea, it just needs those partisan maniacs to be told to chill out when they get all frothy. We're all grown ups and there is no reason why we can't pull it off. OT will be a much better place for it because smart and interesting people will re-engage. We're allowed to disagree without being dicks about it. I'll go first and pledge not to be a dick. Who's with me? I don't remember calling all Tories w*nkers or similar on many occasions but aside from that I agree with you and I'll own up to having been a dick and join you in a pledge not to be again.....well maybe not ever again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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