Ulver Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 ... has tried to bring in this tippy tappy football when he didn't play that way at Norwich and we've certainly never been known for it either ? I genuinely don't think we're suited to it. We don't have the players for it and i'm not sure we as the support are comfortable with it either. I've always been a fan of decent football but with an edge and width. I've always liked a bit of pace down the flanks and a bit of umph in the middle. Personally i prefer the football he got Norwich playing any day. That's edge of the seat exciting get forward and attack, not pass it aimlessly around the back 4 and midfield 5 and never get over the half way line. I'm also confused as he's been saying he wants almost the opposite of what i've been seeing. He said he wants excitement and attacking and shots on goal. That's 3 things that never happened yesterday for starters. I was there yesterday and to my eyes it was almost a carbon copy of the Forest pre season game (but with even less end product). I've never seen the point of passing the ball around in 5 yard circles if there's nothing to come at the end of it. And that's exactly what we were doing. I'm not sure how football starved some of our support are, but some near me were lapping up the first 25 minutes as if we were watching Barcelona yesterday. All I saw were players scared to do anything and taking the easy 5 yard pass option. I see that in the local sports hall every week from middle aged blokes playing 5 a side. Our formation looked like this to me ... -------------------- Given -------------------- Lowton -- Vlaar -- Clark -- Baker ---------- ----------------- KEA--Delph ----------------- --------------------Ireland--------------------- ----------------------Holman------------------- --------------------N'Zogbia-------------------- MASSIVE GAP ----------------------- Bent -------------------- The lack of any width at all was bordering on ridiculous. We never had a wide option or outlet to break with pace. All of the midfielders were piled on top of each other seemingly all trying to do the same job. At one point in the second half West Ham had two players bombing down their left at Lowton and the lad actually held his hands up as if to say 'where is my protection' as all 5 of our midfielders were stuck in the middle doing nothing. I couldn't work it out at all. I've never seen a side have 5 in midfield yet look so narrow. Surely if you're playing 4-5-1 you stick 3 in the middle, and it's up to them to add some thrust and to get the ball wide to the danger men to bring Bent into the game ?. Holman and N'Zogbia were completely useless yesterday, they didn't appear to know what they were supposed to be doing and neither added any width at all. And is it just me or does Holman look/play more like he's 38 than 28 ?, he looked so lethargic and out of puff it was unreal. They'd both be out the team for Saturday if I was picking it. That said, as we haven't bought any wingers we'd be even less likely to score then. That all said, it's early doors but from the 2 games i've physically seen so far under Lambert, they've both worried me for exactly the same reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCforever1991 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I thought Ireland was suppose to be playing in behind the striker??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 19, 2012 I thought Ireland was suppose to be playing in behind the striker??? Visual evidence suggests otherwise. IMO we got the tactics completely wrong yesterday. But it's the first game of the season, lets hope we learn from our mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Ireland looked like he didn't really know what he was doing out there. Some nice touches though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beasley14 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Surely people know that a really good possession based game with attacking intent isn't going to come over night. You have to start with keeping the ball and then add layers to it. This will take most of the season to master if not longer. Do you think Arsenal and Barca, even Spurs had that style over night? It took ages to build it up as a culture, the trouble is no one wants to give a manager or players the time to do it. Then all we get is moaning as to why we can't play that way and our players can't control a ball. I for one am fed up of watching us unable to pass and control a ball, and i'm more than happy to give time to a manager who wants to implement this style of play. Your right at the moment we don't have the players for it, but we will have to add them as we go along, otherwise where else do you start? We may have a few, GH started it in his year here, that was a poor season but as much because he upset too many people than the fact the style of play was no good. It took us ages in that season to get use to knocking the ball around but in the last 8 games we played some very good footy and beat teams in style. I'm happy to wait a little if that style of play and those manner of victories become the norm. I'd much rather pay to sit at VP and watch our players knock the ball around than another teams which is something we have had to get far to use to these last 10-15 years. All the best teams play this style of footy, its no coincidence they keep the ball and end up at the top of the league. If we don't try to join the party we will just end up with endless 5 year cycles of never really getting any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.V.F.C Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 We haven't played a style based on good technical football for a long while. MON was quite entertaining but in a completely different way. It will take a while. It might take less time of Charles N'Zogbia took his finger out his arse and started remembering he's a Premier League player. I agree with some of the points in the opening post but again like so many people it smacks of knee jerk reaction (not to discredit a v.well written and readable post). I'd like Bannan to get a game in the next match, i'd also like to be seeing a debut. Also I think a lot of people have commented on how narrow we were, I think the full backs are meant to contribute to this but Baker simply doesn't have that forward side of the game in his locker so a new LB could help that situation as well. Hopefully once Henke gets out and about we'll sign some players which will mean this style of football IS suitable and nobody can pretend playing this way and getting results is the ideal we all want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 ... has tried to bring in this tippy tappy football when he didn't play that way at Norwich and we've certainly never been known for it either ? I genuinely don't think we're suited to it. We don't have the players for it and i'm not sure we as the support are comfortable with it either. I've always been a fan of decent football but with an edge and width. I've always liked a bit of pace down the flanks and a bit of umph in the middle. Personally i prefer the football he got Norwich playing any day. That's edge of the seat exciting get forward and attack, not pass it aimlessly around the back 4 and midfield 5 and never get over the half way line. I'm also confused as he's been saying he wants almost the opposite of what i've been seeing. He said he wants excitement and attacking and shots on goal. That's 3 things that never happened yesterday for starters. I was there yesterday and to my eyes it was almost a carbon copy of the Forest pre season game (but with even less end product). I've never seen the point of passing the ball around in 5 yard circles if there's nothing to come at the end of it. And that's exactly what we were doing. I'm not sure how football starved some of our support are, but some near me were lapping up the first 25 minutes as if we were watching Barcelona yesterday. All I saw were players scared to do anything and taking the easy 5 yard pass option. I see that in the local sports hall every week from middle aged blokes playing 5 a side. Our formation looked like this to me ... -------------------- Given -------------------- Lowton -- Vlaar -- Clark -- Baker ---------- ----------------- KEA--Delph ----------------- --------------------Ireland--------------------- ----------------------Holman------------------- --------------------N'Zogbia-------------------- MASSIVE GAP ----------------------- Bent -------------------- The lack of any width at all was bordering on ridiculous. We never had a wide option or outlet to break with pace. All of the midfielders were piled on top of each other seemingly all trying to do the same job. At one point in the second half West Ham had two players bombing down their left at Lowton and the lad actually held his hands up as if to say 'where is my protection' as all 5 of our midfielders were stuck in the middle doing nothing. I couldn't work it out at all. I've never seen a side have 5 in midfield yet look so narrow. Surely if you're playing 4-5-1 you stick 3 in the middle, and it's up to them to add some thrust and to get the ball wide to the danger men to bring Bent into the game ?. Holman and N'Zogbia were completely useless yesterday, they didn't appear to know what they were supposed to be doing and neither added any width at all. And is it just me or does Holman look/play more like he's 38 than 28 ?, he looked so lethargic and out of puff it was unreal. They'd both be out the team for Saturday if I was picking it. That said, as we haven't bought any wingers we'd be even less likely to score then. That all said, it's early doors but from the 2 games i've physically seen so far under Lambert, they've both worried me for exactly the same reasons. I disagree with many of your points, but agree with some. this tippy tappy game you sarcastically describe is played by most of the worlds best teams....you have to work towards it. The passing game or expansive football with out end product encourages that type of description " tippy tappy"... executed properly with end product brings with it a defensive capability which is still pleasing on the eye, by virtue of keeping possession... and the all important RESULT. It takes time and work on the traing ground to get it right, i think we have to start somewhere, someday, if we want to progress. Lets just hope PL has the time and patience from the fans, but I would suspect getting the right players in to play it ( comfortable on the ball)would be an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 If we want to play good football then it'll take time to adjust to it. To write it off after one league game is absolutely ridiculous but you come to expect that on here from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 A better end to the thread title , in terms of giving people something to think about, would be "joined our club" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amo69 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 All teams need to play to their strengths but i can't work out what ours are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Surely people know that a really good possession based game with attacking intent isn't going to come over night. You have to start with keeping the ball and then add layers to it. This will take most of the season to master if not longer. Do you think Arsenal and Barca, even Spurs had that style over night? It took ages to build it up as a culture, the trouble is no one wants to give a manager or players the time to do it. Then all we get is moaning as to why we can't play that way and our players can't control a ball. I for one am fed up of watching us unable to pass and control a ball, and i'm more than happy to give time to a manager who wants to implement this style of play. Your right at the moment we don't have the players for it, but we will have to add them as we go along, otherwise where else do you start? We may have a few, GH started it in his year here, that was a poor season but as much because he upset too many people than the fact the style of play was no good. It took us ages in that season to get use to knocking the ball around but in the last 8 games we played some very good footy and beat teams in style. I'm happy to wait a little if that style of play and those manner of victories become the norm. I'd much rather pay to sit at VP and watch our players knock the ball around than another teams which is something we have had to get far to use to these last 10-15 years. All the best teams play this style of footy, its no coincidence they keep the ball and end up at the top of the league. If we don't try to join the party we will just end up with endless 5 year cycles of never really getting any better.Exactly. It will take time. I find the idea that possession football can't ever "suit" Villa ridiculous. Just because we've been playing outdated kick and rush football for a long time doesn't mean we should stick with it. Where exactly has it got us? People need to be patient with Lambert. He's doing the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marstonvilla Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 bloody hell i have never met such a negative bunch of supporters, give the manager a chance for god sake. it will take at least 2 - 3 years for lambert to make this villa team his own, but listening to some fans he will be lucky to get 3 months. we had all this crap from supporters when GH tried to get us playing football and look what crap he had to deal with from the fans. i dread to think what will happen next week against everton if we loose and play crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamousHolteUnion Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 It doesn't suit us at the minute but in 18 months it will do. You can already see that El Ahmadi and Vlaar will work well in that system they were doing short passes and working it well across the back and it's clear to see we will be a decent footballing side in a few years. We also have the advantage that our youth players have played decent football in the youth team and reserves, players like Clark, Gardner and in the future Grealish, Graham and Carruthers will have a much easier transition into the first team, something we have been awful at over the years. This will be good for us in the long run, we still have so many remnants of the MON and McLeish years at the club which were totally inept in technical ability (not discussing eithers positives or other negatives but their sides were not technical). One Lambert has gotten in his own replacements for Dunne, Warnock, Petrov and some more attacking minded players I think we'll be a much more effective team. However, it will take time. Can we please just give him it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Tactically it was a shambles. Nobody seemed to know what to do and as for this tippy tappy style well thats a complete suicide mission. We have about 3 players in the squad capable of playing that brand of football. Lambert has always played quick direct football that involves getting the ball out wide and getting it in the box. All this **** about with little passing triangles between given and the centre halves is a complete waste of time. If he thinks this is going to get villa anywhere by doing this he is deluded. We simply dont have the players and darren bent is about 30 yards away from any support again. Even when we were losing there was nothing at all almost as if 1-0 wasnt to bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulver Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 A better end to the thread title , in terms of giving people something to think about, would be "joined our club" Pay rise ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulver Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 Passing the ball around aimlessly within a 25 yard radius does not constitute 'Good football' Passing the ball around and progressing up the pitch and hurting the opposition does Or maybe that's just me Anyone can pass the ball 5 yards all afternoon without going anywhere surely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beasley14 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Tactically it was a shambles. Nobody seemed to know what to do and as for this tippy tappy style well thats a complete suicide mission. We have about 3 players in the squad capable of playing that brand of football. Lambert has always played quick direct football that involves getting the ball out wide and getting it in the box. All this **** about with little passing triangles between given and the centre halves is a complete waste of time. If he thinks this is going to get villa anywhere by doing this he is deluded. We simply dont have the players and darren bent is about 30 yards away from any support again. Even when we were losing there was nothing at all almost as if 1-0 wasnt to bad. I'd say that's why we just appointed a very experienced coach as our head of scouting in Europe. To find players who will fit into that system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamousHolteUnion Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Lambert has always played quick direct football that involves getting the ball out wide and getting it in the box. All this **** about with little passing triangles between given and the centre halves is a complete waste of time. Norwich's most common formation last season was: ------GK RB-CB-CB-LB ------DM ----CM-CM ------AM ----ST-ST It's not very wide, admittedly alot of their attacking play was from down the sides (around 37% for Right and 34% Left). However on average Norwich's passes per game last season were: Short Passes: 77% Long Passes: 17% Crosses: 5% So it is fairly direct with almost 20% long balls but not booting it outwide to cross it in (as their wide players were the fullbacks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beasley14 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Passing the ball around aimlessly within a 25 yard radius does not constitute 'Good football' Passing the ball around and progressing up the pitch and hurting the opposition does Or maybe that's just me Anyone can pass the ball 5 yards all afternoon without going anywhere surely What your not grasping is that it takes time to get this into reality. It's the hardest part of the pitch to do it in (hence why strikers generally cost more than anyone else). I'll give an analogy from rugby (which is what i play). Rugby teams like England who have recently changed coach sort out the defence first. So England won a few games whilst been very boring and very simple in their play. The coach said he wanted to be attacking and entertaining but nobody saw any of that in the first few games. Then after weeks of training these little sparks started to come. In rugby we call it adding layers to the play, they are the harder parts of the game to master. So after a year of working with the same players or selecting new ones who he thought would buy into/ work in this new style England actually have a team who look to score tries and can hurt teams all over the pitch. Its by no means finished, we have a lot of work to do, but the story is fairly similar to ours. It will takes months of working together and testing players in areas before we see the fruits of this, and unfortuantely it will be the attacking which takes the longest to master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted August 19, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted August 19, 2012 the longest journey begins with a single step. only got to see highlights so i'm not going to comment on the game per se. in answer to "how come lambert..." though, because he wants to turn us into a good football team. lets not get lots of sand in our vagina's about "tippy tappy" either, if you can't see that keeping the ball is what the best teams have done for the best part of 100 years then you need medical help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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