Big_John_10 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 You say 2 seasons of no real spending, except that Houllier had around £25m (or around that) to spend in just one window where as even McLeish got over £15m. I know these were funded by player sales but you can't say there was "no real spending" when that's just not true. Selling your best players and spending part of what you get for them on replacements is not good enough. Your defence of this is just another example of how Lerner gets away with things from some fans. A sell to buy policy is responsible. It doesn't necessarily mean selling your top players in order to fund new transfers. Personally I don't believe it ever meant that. What it means is that we need to ship out the deadwood before bringing more players in, which makes perfect sense. If we go ahead and sign a new back 4 (as we should do ASAP) without shipping out the old back 4, then we're still stuck with several big earners on the books who aren't even playing. Normally I would agree but after the last two years I don't think it's acceptable now. We need to improve, if that means James Collins sitting on the bench all year then so be it (IMO I think he's the sort who would want to play so would leave by the end of the window) The premiership money has gone up, if we finish higher because we have Vlaar instead of Collins it will make up for that. Not only has the prem money gone up but we've been told our sponsorship deal and the macron deal are both good. We make more money than the majority of clubs in the prem the way this club has been run the last few years is unacceptable and hiring Lambert doesn't excuse anything that's happened or allow Lerner to continue to run us as a midtable nothing club. Comparing Randy Lerner, who's also done a lot of good, to Doug Ellis, is just ridiculous. I know. I don't remember worrying about relegation two years in a row and I don't remember making an appointment as ridiculous as appointing Mcleish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Sell to buy isn't as bad as the name suggests. Even if it is in place it's sensible given all the deadwood we still need to unload.Unless... We can't sell the "deadwood" (charming way to describe fellow human beings, BTW) And have to make do with unmotivated and only average or worse older players and youngsters who haven't quite made the grade. For the consequences, please refer back to the last two seasons. Far better to have a sensible and flexible approach to building a better squad alongside helping to ease out the players you don't want, by sale, loan, whatever is possible. That was the approach I assumed Lambert was taking and I still want to really because I don't think he'd be stupid enough to sign up to a strict "sell to buy" approach. But the noises filtering out of the camp over the past few days have started to look less promising. Given that Vlaar came to VP and went away enthusing about joining Villa, why haven't we just signed him up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limvillian Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Despite the last two pages on here, given what I am led to believe I would be absolutely flabbergasted if this deal collapsed now. Totally amazed. For me it should still be a done deal What do you think about the sell to buy rumours? Just that the money is there and RL is watching the wage bill or we really are skint?I don't believe it is. I think it is a sell crap to replace with better policy and transfers are about timing But that is exactly what sell to buy is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Did you miss our last set of accounts? Did you miss the last two years of football?I don't think it would be 'sensible' to get wages back up to 80% (or whatever it was) of turnover. You carry on moaning, though. So signing Vlaar and keeping Collins (only if no one wanted him or he chose to be a prick and sit on the bench all year) would take us to 80% of our turnover? After those accounts have we not lost more players? Hasn't the money from the premiership, sponsors and kit maker all gone up? How much have we lost on compensation to MON, houllier, Birmingham city and Mcleish? If Lerner needs to take a bit of a loss on something that probably wouldn't happen then he needs to, he owes us after the last 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Despite the last two pages on here, given what I am led to believe I would be absolutely flabbergasted if this deal collapsed now. Totally amazed. For me it should still be a done deal What do you think about the sell to buy rumours? Just that the money is there and RL is watching the wage bill or we really are skint?I don't believe it is. I think it is a sell crap to replace with better policy and transfers are about timing But that is exactly what sell to buy is.Not necessarily. It could be sell good to fund new purchases. That's not the position Villa are in of course because we have sold off most of our star players. I think Bent is about the only one we could raise anything substantial on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houlston Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Its not even what Kendrick said anyway, he said "Don't have too, just think they're choosing too" All that confirms is we want to keep the wage bill the same, good financial sense, but if it wasn't possible to offload someone than we can still sign a player because we "dont have too" sell to buy. On a side note it's a bit poor for a journalist to use too instead of to and twice. Oh and I'm not a journalist before anyone criticises me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feyenoord Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 The latest news is that the Agent of Ron Vlaar has given Villa a deadline to complete the transfer. They fully expected Villa to contact the Feyenoord board yesterday (at the latest) and they haven't done it. I don't know what the deadline is but I would guess it's a few days. Ron Vlaar is being left out of the squad in today's friendly but doesn't want to forfeit his chances of playing in the Champions League by not being match fit if the transfer to Villa collapses. He has now missed the last 2 friendlies because of this transfer saga. Feyenoord are playing their last friendly against Real Mallorca on wednesday so I guess everything should be sorted a day before that game. Feyenoord are travelling to Kiev a week later to play the Champions League qualifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Selling your best players and spending part of what you get for them on replacements is not good enough. Your defence of this is just another example of how Lerner gets away with things from some fans.I wasn't defending it, just disputing your point that there was no real spending. Normally I would agree but after the last two years I don't think it's acceptable now. We need to improve, if that means James Collins sitting on the bench all year then so be it (IMO I think he's the sort who would want to play so would leave by the end of the window) The premiership money has gone up, if we finish higher because we have Vlaar instead of Collins it will make up for that. Not only has the prem money gone up but we've been told our sponsorship deal and the macron deal are both good. We make more money than the majority of clubs in the prem the way this club has been run the last few years is unacceptable and hiring Lambert doesn't excuse anything that's happened or allow Lerner to continue to run us as a midtable nothing club.I'll reiterate a point that's already been made - did you see our last set of accounts? I know. I don't remember worrying about relegation two years in a row and I don't remember making an appointment as ridiculous as appointing Mcleish.We did more than worry. We were actually relegated under the stewardship of Ellis, so soon after being crowned European Champions as well. I remember last season everyone saying "Ellis would've got rid of McLeish". Is this the same Ellis that let McNeill relegate us? The same Ellis that has come out publicly and declared that he thinks McLeish should've gotten more time and that the Villa fans didn't like him because of where he came from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limvillian Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Despite the last two pages on here, given what I am led to believe I would be absolutely flabbergasted if this deal collapsed now. Totally amazed. For me it should still be a done deal What do you think about the sell to buy rumours? Just that the money is there and RL is watching the wage bill or we really are skint?I don't believe it is. I think it is a sell crap to replace with better policy and transfers are about timing But that is exactly what sell to buy is.Not necessarily. It could be sell good to fund new purchases. That's not the position Villa are in of course because we have sold off most of our star players. I think Bent is about the only one we could raise anything substantial on. I'm not saying we have a policy in place but in that scenario at the end of the day you still have to sell to buy, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I wasn't defending it, just disputing your point that there was no real spending. Well you haven't. You said yourself it was funded through selling our best players. Its not acceptable. I'll reiterate a point that's already been made - did you see our last set of accounts? Yes and I responded to that in my post to Coda. We did more than worry. We were actually relegated under the stewardship of Ellis, so soon after being crowned European Champions as well. I remember last season everyone saying "Ellis would've got rid of McLeish". Is this the same Ellis that let McNeill relegate us? The same Ellis that has come out publicly and declared that he thinks McLeish should've gotten more time and that the Villa fans didn't like him because of where he came from? That's the one. It's also the same one who during the premiership years only 5 teams gained more total points than us and we won a trophy. Doug made a lot of mistake and rightly took stick and abuse for them, I think it's strange how some can defend Lerner over these past two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Well you haven't. You said yourself it was funded through selling our best players. Its not acceptable.How? You claimed there was no "real spending". Since when is £40m in two seasons not real spending? Yes and I responded to that in my post to Coda.And we're already addressing that with the new manager and new signings. That's the one. It's also the same one who during the premiership years only 5 teams gained more total points than us and we won a trophy. Doug made a lot of mistake and rightly took stick and abuse for them, I think it's strange how some can defend Lerner over these past two years.People defend Lerner because on the whole he's not been a bad owner. Naive yes but not bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Did you miss our last set of accounts? Did you miss the last two years of football?I don't think it would be 'sensible' to get wages back up to 80% (or whatever it was) of turnover. You carry on moaning, though. So signing Vlaar and keeping Collins (only if no one wanted him or he chose to be a prick and sit on the bench all year) would take us to 80% of our turnover? After those accounts have we not lost more players? Hasn't the money from the premiership, sponsors and kit maker all gone up? How much have we lost on compensation to MON, houllier, Birmingham city and Mcleish? If Lerner needs to take a bit of a loss on something that probably wouldn't happen then he needs to, he owes us after the last 2 years.The appointment of Houllier was made in good faith and didn't work out. This happens at most clubs. Choosing McLeish was indefensible and catastrophic. We're not shareholders so Lerner doesn't owe us anything. The TV money goes up next summer. The delay with Vlaar could be down to Feyenoord asking a high price for their captain. There's five weeks left in the window and if we're waiting for the likes of O'Neill to buy some of our defenders we may be in for a long wait. A sell to buy policy under these circumstances looks naive and unworkable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 How? You claimed there was no "real spending". Since when is £40m in two seasons not real spending? When I was criticising Lerner for no real spending, my point was we were selling our best players and investing less than what we got for them back in the squad. This is what I meant by no real spending. I hope this clears it up for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamousHolteUnion Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I knew of Vlaar when he was younger and was quite promising right? What is he like now? Is he better than Dunne and Collins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 How? You claimed there was no "real spending". Since when is £40m in two seasons not real spending? When I was criticising Lerner for no real spending, my point was we were selling our best players and investing less than what we got for them back in the squad. This is what I meant by no real spending. I hope this clears it up for you.Should've said that in the beginning. However, as our last accounts proved, we couldn't afford to invest all of that money back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 How? You claimed there was no "real spending". Since when is £40m in two seasons not real spending? When I was criticising Lerner for no real spending, my point was we were selling our best players and investing less than what we got for them back in the squad. This is what I meant by no real spending. I hope this clears it up for you. Should've said that in the beginning. However, as our last accounts proved, we couldn't afford to invest all of that money back in. Yes my fault. Next time I'll make sure i'm very clear. We couldn't afford to invest it back in because of the awful way Lerner has run the club, hence my original criticism of him and the shock at how some will still defend him and claim a sell to buy policy as sensible and acceptable. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 It seems Lerner gets criticised for having run the club poorly and now gets criticised for trying to rectify that. That push under O'Neill involved an awful lot of Lerner's own money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 It seems Lerner gets criticised for having run the club poorly and now gets criticised for trying to rectify that. That push under O'Neill involved an awful lot of Lerner's own money. We needed to get the wage bill down, I agree with that. But how low do we have to drop before we can invest properly again? Since MON left we've let go some big earners and like I said the money from the prem, sponsors and kit have gone up. If players like Warnock and Collins want to pick up their wages and sit in the stands for a year then that's something we need to take a risk on. We need to improve this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis_B Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 It has gone a bit off topic sorry. My point is we should sign Vlaar and worry about getting rid of Collins over the next month. Lambert has identified him as a player he wants and Vlaar wants to come and play for us. Get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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