limpid Posted March 5, 2013 Administrator Share Posted March 5, 2013 Do you have the title? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 If you mean a Jew called Jesus who got baptised by John the baptist and was crucified by Pilate, then there's widespread belief that he did.Isn't that rather the point that is being made?I guess it depends how you're defining belief.I meant it in a sense other than the religious sense, in the way that after drawing a opinion after consulting the evidence you might say you believe it to be true, despite not having certainty.The problem of course is that ancient history isn't a science. It falls way short of the levels of proof needed for the scientific standard, you're never going to get a 5 sigma confidence level when it comes to the existence of some bloke 2000 odd years ago, so the people that study it instead have far lower expectations.Now I don't think there's any actual first hand evidence he existed, everything we know that references him was wrote after he died. But that doesn't mean it can't be used as evidence. If there was enough 3rd party sources whose stories collaborated and were demonstrably correct in other areas then maybe we could draw conclusions that he did indeed exist. Some people think that is the case. The problem of course that most people that study this sort of history do it with a vested interest, already of the mind that Jesus existed and looking for ways to justify that view, rather than coming at it from the scientific method of disproving.I'm not against the idea that Jesus existed, maybe he did, maybe the few lines wrote about him in non-christian sources are really all there is. Maybe he was just some guy that gained a few followers, and then in the decades after the stories ran away with themselves. He wouldn't be the first guy to preach, won't be the last. Ultimately though, I don't really care. Exist or not he wasn't the son of god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Can you believe 68 pages of this thread and we still haven't invented a good all-purpose religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted March 6, 2013 Administrator Share Posted March 6, 2013 Can you believe 68 pages of this thread and we still haven't invented a good all-purpose religion? Other than the obvious one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Other than the obvious one? Sun worship! The weather would get better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 8, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 8, 2013 So the Catholic church in Scotland covered up child abuse. Perhaps the least surprising story so far of 2013. The Catholic church disgusts me and I have to question how anyone can remain a part of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 The Catholic church disgusts me and I have to question how anyone can remain a part of it. The vast majority of Catholics in the developed world don't give a shit about the Church anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 9, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 9, 2013 The Catholic church disgusts me and I have to question how anyone can remain a part of it. The vast majority of Catholics in the developed world don't give a shit about the Church anyway. I'm not sure how exactly you draw that conclusion and I'm really not sure I'd agree given the huge numbers that turn up at their brain washing centres every Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 The Catholic church disgusts me and I have to question how anyone can remain a part of it. The vast majority of Catholics in the developed world don't give a shit about the Church anyway. I'm not sure how exactly you draw that conclusion and I'm really not sure I'd agree given the huge numbers that turn up at their brain washing centres every Sunday. Okay, fair enough - more accurately, in the developed world, the vast majority of Catholics pick and choose which parts of Catholic doctrine they want to believe. That's why they can still remain nominally Catholic - they go to church (some of them) and pray, but they don't believe or partake in the disgusting parts of Catholic doctrine, like the literality of Transubstantiation, homophobia, eschewal of contraceptives the list goes on and on. In the developing world it is obviously a lot different, and I would surmise that that has something to do with the comparatively limited education and exposure to secular views people in those countries have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I guess it depends how you're defining belief.Indeed.The way you put it and it being used in a thread about religion, I took it to mean the certainty of religious belief rather than the belief (i.e. an opinion based on the sources put in front of you) that you go on to speak about which is a completely different beast.I obviously got it wrong but I do wonder whether we (so no admonishment of you but rather a salutary lesson to us all) ought to be more interested in the semantics especially when the inferences drawn (and meanings intended) can be so divergent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 9, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 9, 2013 The Catholic church disgusts me and I have to question how anyone can remain a part of it. The vast majority of Catholics in the developed world don't give a shit about the Church anyway. I'm not sure how exactly you draw that conclusion and I'm really not sure I'd agree given the huge numbers that turn up at their brain washing centres every Sunday. Okay, fair enough - more accurately, in the developed world, the vast majority of Catholics pick and choose which parts of Catholic doctrine they want to believe. That's why they can still remain nominally Catholic - they go to church (some of them) and pray, but they don't believe or partake in the disgusting parts of Catholic doctrine, like the literality of Transubstantiation, homophobia, eschewal of contraceptives the list goes on and on. In the developing world it is obviously a lot different, and I would surmise that that has something to do with the comparatively limited education and exposure to secular views people in those countries have. I don't care which parts of the doctrine they want to believe in or not, or if they believe or partake in the "disgusting parts" of the Catholic doctrine or not. Perhaps I've not made myself clear, so let me try harder. I find the Catholic Church, its history and its present disgusting the entire thing from top to bottom. I find the bad parts so repulsive that they over shadow any good within the church because I believe people to be capable of acts of kindness without the structure, influence or direction of the church. I find the Catholic Church repulsive and therefore I find myself questioning the morals of anyone who is a part of it because I simply do not understand how they can justify it to themselves. People can believe in God if they want, that is up to them but I simply can't imagine how anyone can be a part of that church and the things it stands for or the things it seemingly is willing to turn a blind eye too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 People can believe in God if they want, that is up to them but I simply can't imagine how anyone can be a part of that church and the things it stands for or the things it seemingly is willing to turn a blind eye too. And what I am essentially saying is that people stay in the church because they are able to make a mental distinction between being part of the church and believing in its tenets and condoning its actions. I'm not saying this view justified, and I'm not suggesting in the slightest that the Catholic Church isn't repulsive. I just think that this view is the reason why most Catholics, nominally at least, continue to claim membership in an utterly despicable institution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”Then why are the christian churches all so bloody wealthy ? The Catholics are sitting on billions and I would hate to know just how much those American mega churches are raking in ?They could sell off the lot and help millions of suffering humans yet they don't.This for me is a far bigger tragedy than any other disgusting thing these arseholes get up to . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted March 11, 2013 Administrator Share Posted March 11, 2013 Legov, you are describing cognitive dissonance. Psychologically normal people strive to reduce dissonance, not embrace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted March 11, 2013 Author VT Supporter Share Posted March 11, 2013 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 11, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 11, 2013 The Catholic church seems to me to be an unwitting social experiment in what men can resort to when they are denied any sexual outlet. The faith itself is no different to any other religion in what it attempts to provide for people. But until it lets its priests live something more approaching a normal life then there will always be these problems. If they do implement some way of stopping the abuses while at the same time continuing with the celibacy vow then they'll just stop getting applications to the priesthood - something which I believe is already happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) Where does the human rights act stand on education? If only we could, by law, protect kids from being put into faith schools... Edited March 11, 2013 by CarewsEyebrowDesigner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted March 11, 2013 Author VT Supporter Share Posted March 11, 2013 Where does the human rights act stand on education? If only we could, by law, protect kids from being put into faith schools... Oooh! Oooh! Oooh! You are not showing RESPECT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Legov, you are describing cognitive dissonance. Psychologically normal people strive to reduce dissonance, not embrace it. People often deal with dissonance by rationalisations like the one I mentioned. Tbh, I don't think it's that big a deal either. If I'm a member of the Democratic Party, I don't have to agree with every item in its platform, I don't even have to support most of them. Same for claiming membership in any church. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 12, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2013 Gotta say I've never known Ireland to have less of an interest in the Vatican going to conclave. Seriously, it's the most noticeable shift in our collective psyche that this is happening with barely a care. We're very much only a catholic country in name and previous-reputation now. The man on the street does. not. care. this time. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts