tonyh29 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I've read up quite a bit about Ali, his life, career and what not. I consider him to a be a bit of a rocket polisher, and during his career quite a cruel and vindictive man/fighter. Goes against the grain, but that's my opinion on him. must admit , whilst not having read as much as Jon has ..that was also the opinion I formed of him from the bits I have seen / heard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Sportsman of the 20th century, the complete package. Really? I don’t think you can compare different sports to come up with that. It's only my opinion, but I'd say he was. He had all but retired when I was born yet still I grew up immersed in his legend. I think it is very much a case of him being in the right place at the right time, like Pele he was the first big star of the television era and for that he will always be remembered, but he was arguably the most recognisable face on the planet for quite a long time and he was the top man in the toughest era of the most difficult sport I know of. He talked the talk and walked the walk, and while that might not be what some people want out of an athlete, I love it when somebody has the ability to back up arrogance. Quite a few people have had that over the years but Ali had a wit and a charm which I dont think has been beaten yet. Ali v Tyson in their prime? I think if Ali makes it though the first round, he wins. He was very good at not getting hit, he had a chin made if granite for when he did get hit and he beat a prime George Foreman when he was supposedly over the hill. I think the only "modern" heavyweight who would have given Ali a run for his money was Lennox Lewis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Have to say if I was compiling a list of my all time favourite sportsmen, he would be right at the top Legend for me and I was utterly devastated when Spinks beat him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Yeah, he is paying the price for not knowing when to stop. The Larry Holmes fight was the worst decision he ever made imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaajax Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 He's great but he's no Rocky Balboa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 17, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted January 17, 2012 What a guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 He was slightly before my time given that he had his last fight when I was 7. Being a lover of boxing though I have always been mesmerised by the Heavyweight era Ali boxed in. Anyone of Foreman, Frazier, Norton had been around in another era they would have dominated. The fact that Ali was the cream of an unbelievable crop shows how good the guy was. Of course you then throw in the out of ring stuff, much of it controversial, and his illness and you can't fail to be intrigued by him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quick heads up to anyone with the ESPN Classic channel. They have an Ali night on at the moment till the early hours including the Frazier fights, the Foreman and Sonny Liston fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I think it is very much a case of him being in the right place at the right time, like Pele he was the first big star of the television era and for that he will always be remembered, but he was arguably the most recognisable face on the planet for quite a long time and he was the top man in the toughest era of the most difficult sport I know of. He talked the talk and walked the walk, and while that might not be what some people want out of an athlete, I love it when somebody has the ability to back up arrogance. Quite a few people have had that over the years but Ali had a wit and a charm which I dont think has been beaten yet. Ali was a great sportsman. But he had great PR and supporters. He’s got a compelling story with lots of human interest about it. I just don’t think you can compare his achievements with say Bradman, Owens, Merckx, Spitz, Zátopek or Gebrselassie, etc, etc. What I would say is America has written much of the 20th C, and has over over exaggerated its own. They will say that for example beating the Russians at Ice Hockey in 1980 was the greatest moment. Of course it isn’t. Its Sir Roger Bannister breaking the four minute mile. Bannister was interviewed by the BBC's sports correspondent Rob Bonnet. At the conclusion of the interview, Bannister was asked whether he looked back on the sub-4-minute mile as the most important achievement of his life. Bannister replied to the effect that no, he rather saw his subsequent forty years of practising as neurologist and some of the new procedures he introduced as being more significant. His major contribution in academic medicine was in the field of autonomic failure, an area of neurology focusing on illnesses characterised by certain automatic responses of the nervous system (for example, elevated heart rate when standing up) not occurring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Happy birthday mo ali. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ali was tough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Interesting article by Bunce: Steve Bunce"]Muhammad Ali is 70 today and his life has reached a stage where golden moments are all that really matter. However, it is still important to remember the other bits. It was not all glory for Ali because the death threats were real, the CIA had numerous files, many of his fights struggled to sell and the KKK made him an honorary member. The tales of hardship have been told and retold, often made more dramatic as the cruel years have denied the man the right to correct inaccuracies. There still remain parts of the myth and the magic that are not excusable with a comic wink. I also think that he would stop laughing at the memory of being embraced by the KKK after making a series of racist comments. Sure, it was fun in the re-telling but it never made his great rival Joe Frazier laugh; Frazier was dirt-poor and really Southern and grew up hearing first-hand accounts of lynchings. "No intelligent black man and black woman in his or her right mind wants white boys and white girls coming to their homes to marry their black sons and daughters," Ali said, much to the delight of the Klan elders. I often wonder how we would deal with Bobby Moore if he had offered something similar in support of Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech, just a year or so after winning the World Cup as England's captain. The covert monitoring by both the CIA and the FBI increased after his 1966 assertion that he had: "No quarrel with the Vietcong." The fallout was spectacular, with planned fights being scrapped as cinemas withdrew their facilities for live screenings, and there was a mass call for a boycott of his future fights. This all happened about 18 months before he lost his right to fight and led to a series of four quick fights on the road to escape the hate and intensity of his critics. Sure, he loved London but he hated not fighting and not earning even more! In March 1966 he met the iron-jawed local George Chuvalo, who had accepted the fight at short notice when Ernie Terrell was forced to withdraw, in Canada at the start of six hectic months. Terrell had agreed a deal where his purse increased with each and every ticket sold in cinemas; after Ali's Vietcong comment the fight was simply not viable because cinema owners withdrew their support. "It was a difficult time, a hard time to sell Muhammad to the American people," said Bob Arum, who was part of a company called Main Bout Inc, which was created in early 1966 to market ancillary rights to Ali's fights. When Ali stepped in the ring against Chuvalo it was only his third fight since winning the title two years earlier and the reality is that it meant very little; he was hated by most of America. So much is written and remembered from the Sixties about the two Sonny Liston fights, then Ali's open conversion to the Nation of Islam and then his refusal to be inducted. His name change, a gradual process from Cassius Clay via Cassius X to Muhammad Ali, was ignored on both sides of the Atlantic by most of the media until – and even after – the first Joe Frazier fight, which is astounding and embarrassing. The sweet irony is that the neglected Ali from the Sixties was a much better fighter than the far more famous man from the Fight of the Century (1971), the Rumble in the Jungle (1974) and the Thrilla in Manila (1975). Floyd Patterson and Chuvalo fought both versions and their testimony is reinforced by Ali's own assertions. However, he was nasty in the ring. "Take the Terrell Ali and the Foreman Ali and the younger one would win," Ali said. The Terrell fight did eventually happen, his penultimate fight before being banished, at the Astrodome in Houston. It was not a pretty sight. Ali brutalised Terrell, taunted him and inflicted illegal and potentially lasting damage to Terrell's eyes by rubbing his face on the ropes. The veterans' veteran of Fleet Street, George Whiting of the Evening Standard, a rare British presence at ringside, wrote with disgust about Ali's antics, which included spitting at the feet of his bruised, bloody and beaten opponent. I interviewed Terrell 30 years later and he was still not smiling. There was one more massacre, when Ali thankfully seemed to take pity on a weary Zora Folley, before he lost his licence and many of his friends. "We missed his peak, we were robbed of his best years," insists Angelo Dundee, his trainer and passenger. It was during the exile, which lasted from June 1967 until October 1970, that Ali was helped in a variety of ways by Frazier. It was a friendship that never lasted and I remember Frazier telling me about the moment Ali switched and became his tormentor, a savage role that continued for too long and was laughed at by too many. They were in Frazier's gym in Philadelphia, no great entourages, just a few people including a photographer and they were required to get in the ring for a publicity shot. "We got in that ring and the insults started," Frazier said. "I'd never heard him talk that way before and told him to 'quit'. That was it." Ali was at Frazier's funeral two months ago, the loss clear on a face that stopped showing emotion a long, long time ago. I would like to think that during the service Ali ran through decades of cruelty to Frazier in his mind; it is about time that one or two other parts of Ali's life were viewed without the benefit of invention and rose-tinted glasses. The Ali who defeated Terrell was unbeatable, the greatest fighter ever, but he was also ruthless and unpleasant – I have no problem with that, but please don't tell me that all the other stuff was done and said with a twinkle in his eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 ^^^ Great article. Nice guy Ali :evil: The Greatest? Pffft. Not even regarded by most respected boxing pundits as the greatest fighter (pound for pound), let alone The Greatest 'Sportsman'. Not a nice chap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Dunno how much he will enjoy the day considering his illness, but I think a tribute to the big man is worth its own thread. I dont think it is wrong to say that Ali was the most famous man in the world (certainly the western world) in the early 70s. A man of great charisma and skill and an exceptionally gifted athlete to go with it. Sportsman of the 20th century, the complete package. I'd say he was the most famous person worldwide back then, not just the western world. He was a superstar in Africa and Asia as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted January 18, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'd say he was the most famous person worldwide back then, not just the western world. He was a superstar in Africa and Asia as well.I agree. In the 1960s, it was basically Muhammad Ali, John F. Kennedy and The Beatles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 ^^^ Great article. Nice guy Ali :evil: The Greatest? Pffft. Not even regarded by most respected boxing pundits as the greatest fighter (pound for pound), let alone The Greatest 'Sportsman'. Not a nice chap. It's generally him or Sugar Ray Robinson who gets voted #1. Ali said he felt Ray Robinson was the best ever, which probably affects the opinion of a lot of people, but Ali grew up watching Ray Robinson fight (Robinson retired at about the time Ali was establishing himself as a world class heavyweight) so he was talking about a childhood hero and it may have been a rare moment of modesty from the man. P4P rankings always leave me a bit perturbed as they are designed to artificially inflate the smaller man's prowess. For me Ali was the greatest, a supreme showman with the ability to back up everything he said. Yes, he had a mean streak but you need one of those to make it to the top in boxing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'd say he was the most famous person worldwide back then, not just the western world. He was a superstar in Africa and Asia as well.I agree. In the 1960s, it was basically Muhammad Ali, John F. Kennedy and The Beatles. and the Stones, Liz and Dick, Vietnam, Esquire etc, etc.... I think personally Jesse Owens at the 1936 or the Black Power salutes of 68, The 72 Olympic tragedy more significant moments in sport as a wider cultural event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted January 18, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'd say he was the most famous person worldwide back then, not just the western world. He was a superstar in Africa and Asia as well.I agree. In the 1960s, it was basically Muhammad Ali, John F. Kennedy and The Beatles. and the Stones, Liz and Dick, Vietnam, Esquire etc, etc.... I think personally Jesse Owens at the 1936 or the Black Power salutes of 68, The 72 Olympic tragedy more significant moments in sport as a wider cultural event.I was talking about famous faces, so Vietnam doesn't qualify. Esquire? Nah. Playboy, possibly, but again, not a person. Even the Stones didn't have the worldwide instant recognition factor that The Beatles had. Burton and Taylor? No, not on that scale. Bobby Charlton had the same status as David Beckham. Trust me, I was there (and yes, I know the saying). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 ^^^ Great article. Nice guy Ali :evil: The Greatest? Pffft. Not even regarded by most respected boxing pundits as the greatest fighter (pound for pound), let alone The Greatest 'Sportsman'. Not a nice chap. It's generally him or Sugar Ray Robinson who gets voted #1. It's generally SRR that get's the number 1 slot, and rightly so, for being fecking excellent over many years, over so many weight divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWalletInspector Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Greatest heavyweight, yes, but he doesn't come close to Robinson P4P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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