PauloBarnesi Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Esquire? Nah. Playboy, possibly, but again, not a person. George Lois says no To sum up the 60s in three people (or set of people) is simplification. I added events because these were monumental times; I would add the Apollo mission. How many people watched Ali fights? How many watched man landing on the moon. I suspect the number of the latter equally all of the former... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 ^^^ Great article. Nice guy Ali :evil: The Greatest? Pffft. Not even regarded by most respected boxing pundits as the greatest fighter (pound for pound), let alone The Greatest 'Sportsman'. Not a nice chap. Ali said he felt Ray Robinson was the best ever, Probably because he was. Ali, a top heavyweight, but in most (decent) lists, not regarded as the best PFP fighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Which again brings back my issue with P4P lists. They are designed to take away advantages that bigger men have, I can see why they exist because if they didnt the greatest ever rankings would be a boring list full of heavyweights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted January 18, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2012 I watched the moon landing, and a couple of the Ali fights. But like I say, I don't like boxing, I just happened to in the room when my dad was watching them. I take your point about Esquire, but I still think if you showed a cover to someone from ANYWHERE in the world (Ulan Bator, Tierra del Fuego, Timbuktu, wherever), they'd be more likely to recognise the Playboy bunny logo. We can all trot out sixties icons - like I said, I was there - and yours would all qualify (as would Jean Shrimpton, Martin Luther King, the Berlin Wall, Woodstock, James Bond, etc., etc.). But if I had to pick three faces for truly global fame at the time, it would be JFK, Lennon and Ali. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J.Rimmer Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Though we missed his best years, I think the other great fighters would have had problems hitting him. For me he really was the greatest. That said, whilst the pre fight hype was fine, his statements on politics philosophy and religion were, and still are, pretty pathetic. I can't believe the other most famous person of our age, far better known than the Beatles or JFK, has not got a mention in this thread.... Pele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J.Rimmer Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The great advantage of Ali and Pele over the Beatles, is that their appeal does not depend on a particular cultural or linguistic base. For example, whilst many latin americans will recognise, though not understand, 'Satisfaction', if you mention Mick Jagger, they will stare at you blankly. I think the other global figure we have missed, still capable of captivating new generations all over the world, is Chaplin... I'm sure he has been watched a lot more than Ali... and a good deal smarter to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted January 18, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2012 Would Pele have had high recognition in (say) the US Midwest in the 60s? I'd say not. Chaplin was a 20th Century icon, rather than 60s. Him and Hitler would probably have been the top two in between the Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Would Pele have had high recognition in (say) the US Midwest in the 60s? I'd say not. But I think you could probably find a place where the reverse was true. As I said its all very America centric and rather limited. Chairman Mao would be recognised by most people in Asia. I doubt Ali had that fame. Or Ghandi in India, or Bradman in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted January 18, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2012 Actually Mao might get in at number 4 come to think of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'd say that Pelé was very much a Brazilian hero though. Did he ever really transcend nationality like Ali did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted January 18, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'd say that Pelé was very much a Brazilian hero though. Did he ever really transcend nationality like Ali did?In the "soccer" world, yes. In the USA (pre-New York Cosmos anyway), I'd say no. EDIT: If you asked a non-football fan from anywhere in the world to name a footballer they would probably have said "Pele" (with "Bobby Charlton" a close second). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Travelled around bits of Asia last year .. pains me to say that the number one icon in the main cities now (least amongst the younger generation) is probably Lady Gaga She was bloody everywhere , her music was in every cab and shop , pictures of her ..I'd actually made it to that point in my life without having heard one of her songs .... It was a relief to get away from her after a while Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veloman Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Don't like boxing but guess Ali (why is this often pronounced Ah Lee) was a good boxer - indeed an Olympic champion IIRC and seemed to have low BMI and was very fast for a heavyweight. My Grandad was a boxing fan hence I sometimes watched it. He didn't like him either - thought he was too arrogant. But then if you had asked him who was "the Greatest" he would have said George Cummings ! However - I don't think anyone has mentioned the huge slice of luck he had fighting Henry Cooper. When Cooper caught him with that punch Ali certainly didn't know what day it was. Wonder what would have happened if the bell hadn't saved him. I don't know if it is on Youtube but if you ain't seen it have a look. Greatest sportsman - never ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted January 18, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2012 Ali (why is this often pronounced Ah Lee) We're back to British/American pronunciations again. American = Ah Lee British = Ally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Greatest sportsman - never ! Eddy obviously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veloman Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Greatest sportsman - never ! Eddy obviously No ..... Lance ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I don't think anyone has mentioned the huge slice of luck he had fighting Henry Cooper. When Cooper caught him with that punch Ali certainly didn't know what day it was. Wonder what would have happened if the bell hadn't saved him. I don't know if it is on Youtube but if you ain't seen it have a look. Greatest sportsman - never ! Here mate About 3 minutes in. Completely out of it, doesnt have a clue what is going on or where he is. Also, smelling salts??? They knew he was in a bad way. When were smelling salts outlawed in boxing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'm not the greatest; I'm the double greatest. Not only do I knock 'em out, I pick the round. It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. Floats like a butterfly, sting like a bee, his hands can't hit what his eyes can't see. Before the 1974 fight against George Foreman I done wrestled with an alligator, I done tussled with a whale; handcuffed lightning, thrown thunder in jail; only last week, I murdered a rock, injured a stone, hospitalised a brick; I'm so mean I make medicine sick. Again, before the 1974 Foreman fight I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and got into bed before the room was dark. Yet more '74 pre-fight build-up ahead of facing Foreman The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights. Superman don't need no seatbelt. When you can whip any man in the world, you never know peace. I'm the best. I just haven't played yet. On playing golf Boxing is a lot of white men watching two black men beat each other up. Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. Only the nose knows where the nose goes when the doors close. I never thought of losing, but now that it's happened, the only thing is to do it right. That's my obligation to all the people who believe in me. We all have to take defeats in life. After losing to Ken Norton, 31 March 1973 I am America. I am the part you won't recognise. But get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. Cassius Clay is a slave name. I didn't choose it and I don't want it. I am Muhammad Ali, a free name - it means beloved of God - and I insist people use it when people speak to me and of me. Announcing his conversion to the Muslim faith after first Sonny Liston fight "What's my name, fool? What's my name?" To Ernie Terrell during their 1967 fight - Terrell had refused to call him Muhammad Ali I know I got it made while the masses of black people are catchin' hell, but as long as they ain't free, I ain't free. Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on brown people while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs? I got nothing against no Viet Cong. No Vietnamese ever called me a 'nigger'. Nobody has to tell me that this is a serious business. I'm not fighting one man. I'm fighting a lot of men, showing a lot of 'em, here is one man they couldn't defeat, couldn't conquer. My mission is to bring freedom to 30m black people. Before his fight against Jerry Quarry in 1970. A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life. What's really hurting me - the name Islam is involved, and Muslim is involved and causing trouble and starting hate and violence. Islam is not a killer religion, Islam means peace. I couldn't just sit home and watch people label Muslims as the reason for this problem. 21 September 2001, in the aftermath of the World Trade Center attacks Frazier is so ugly that he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wildlife. Ali It will be a killer, and a chiller, and a thriller, when I get the gorilla in Manila Ali, before the "Thrilla in Manila" against Frazier Joe Frazier is so ugly that when he cries, the tears turn around and go down the back of his head. Ali I always bring out the best in men I fight, but Joe Frazier, I'll tell the world right now, brings out the best in me. I'm gonna tell ya, that's one helluva man, and God bless him. Ali, after the "Thrilla in Manila" I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologise for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight. Ali The Butterfly and me have been through some ups and downs and there have been lots of emotions, many of them bad. But I have forgiven him. I had to. You cannot hold out for ever. There were bruises in my heart because of the words he used. I spent years dreaming about him and wanting to hurt him. But you have got to throw that stick out of the window. Do not forget that we needed each other, to produce some of the greatest fights of all time. Frazier in reflective mood. Hey Floyd - I seen you! Someday I'm gonna whup you! Don't you forget, I am the greatest! To then-world heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson during the 1960 Olympic Games. Why, Chump, I bet you scare yourself to death just starin' in the mirror. You ugly bear! You ain't never fought nobody but tramps and has beens. You call yourself a world champion? You're too old and slow to be champion! To Sonny Liston before their fight on 25 February 1964 I shook up the world! I shook up the world! After beating Liston That all you got George? To Foreman late in the Rumble in the Jungle in Zaire on 30 October 1974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J.Rimmer Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Would Pele have had high recognition in (say) the US Midwest in the 60s? I'd say not. Fair point, but if we're counting people acroos the globe, the American midwest is not a very high scorer... whereas every human being who ever kicked a ball had heard of Pele. Far fewer have ever seen a boxing glove. We would need to ask an Indian and a Chinese to see who was better known. I'm not saying Pele was more famous than Ali, but he must have run him a close second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Itv 4 has a five part prog about him .. Starting now thriller in Manilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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