Kingfisher Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 The Tories decimated the network around my area in the 1960's beaching axe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 The Tories decimated the network around my area in the 1960's beaching axe. Ahh selective history at its finest 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 27, 2014 Moderator Share Posted February 27, 2014 The Tories decimated the network around my area in the 1960's beaching axe.I think you'll find a fella by the name of Wilson who got elected promising to stop the Beeching cuts and then actually went one louder is the real man to blame there. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 It was opposition from Labour backbenchers which eventually stemmed the cuts. But I take your point. On HS2, the economic benefits have been exaggerated, and criticism censored, I think it's a folly. Billions of pounds of wasted money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted February 28, 2014 Administrator Share Posted February 28, 2014 It was opposition from Labour backbenchers which eventually stemmed the cuts. But I take your point. On HS2, the economic benefits have been exaggerated, and criticism censored, I think it's a folly. Billions of pounds of wasted money. Then you fail to understand its purpose. It may indeed end up a folly when viewed in isolation, but it will lead an improved transport infrastructure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 It was opposition from Labour backbenchers which eventually stemmed the cuts. But I take your point. On HS2, the economic benefits have been exaggerated, and criticism censored, I think it's a folly. Billions of pounds of wasted money. Then you fail to understand its purpose. It may indeed end up a folly when viewed in isolation, but it will lead an improved transport infrastructure. agreed ..however I still think it's kinda old tech and just think we are missing a great opportunity by not going all Buck Rogers on this project .... i.e Maglev rather than friction of steel on steel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Design an effective set of points which work with Maglev and they will probably go for it. As it stands steel on steel is more suitable for the job, especially if the branches to Manchester and Leeds are happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Design an effective set of points which work with Maglev and they will probably go for it. As it stands steel on steel is more suitable for the job, especially if the branches to Manchester and Leeds are happening. I just want it so we have these super awesome trains Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 It was opposition from Labour backbenchers which eventually stemmed the cuts. But I take your point. On HS2, the economic benefits have been exaggerated, and criticism censored, I think it's a folly. Billions of pounds of wasted money. Then you fail to understand its purpose. It may indeed end up a folly when viewed in isolation, but it will lead an improved transport infrastructure.We're clearly not going to agree on this. Billions spent on this could be spent more effectively elsewhere IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 It was opposition from Labour backbenchers which eventually stemmed the cuts. But I take your point. On HS2, the economic benefits have been exaggerated, and criticism censored, I think it's a folly. Billions of pounds of wasted money. Then you fail to understand its purpose. It may indeed end up a folly when viewed in isolation, but it will lead an improved transport infrastructure. We're clearly not going to agree on this. Billions spent on this could be spent more effectively elsewhere IMO. have to disagree Spend billions on welfare for example and it's gone forever .. spend billions on Infrastructure and you can generate more income ( and jobs ) in the long run and support both surely ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 It was opposition from Labour backbenchers which eventually stemmed the cuts. But I take your point. On HS2, the economic benefits have been exaggerated, and criticism censored, I think it's a folly. Billions of pounds of wasted money. Then you fail to understand its purpose. It may indeed end up a folly when viewed in isolation, but it will lead an improved transport infrastructure. We're clearly not going to agree on this. Billions spent on this could be spent more effectively elsewhere IMO. have to disagree Spend billions on welfare for example and it's gone forever .. spend billions on Infrastructure and you can generate more income ( and jobs ) in the long run and support both surely ? yep, you build roads (or train lines ) out of a recession as the saying goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 28, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted February 28, 2014 It was opposition from Labour backbenchers which eventually stemmed the cuts. But I take your point. On HS2, the economic benefits have been exaggerated, and criticism censored, I think it's a folly. Billions of pounds of wasted money. Then you fail to understand its purpose. It may indeed end up a folly when viewed in isolation, but it will lead an improved transport infrastructure. I agree with this. I think the way the HS2 has been "pitched" is fundamentally wrong. i.e. everyone seems to focus on the speed. It's a waste of money to knock 20 minutes (or whatever it is) off the journey from London to Birmingham. But that's not the main reason for it to be built. It's capacity and infrastructure reasons primarily. The speed thing is just a bonus if anything. (I haven't followed this thread closely so I'm probably stating the obvious and repeating what others have said) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted February 28, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted February 28, 2014 Spend it on developing tide or wave generated power, once we have cheap energy then we can build the infrastructure using the cheap energy source, its a win win. If were going to have it then build it on a flyover over the motorway network. Surely the principle of moving labour to the workplace is dated, we should be moving the workplace to the labour. If the HS2 is for tourism and then there is only going to be one benefactor and that will be the same old SE slice of England, This ain't London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Spend it on developing tide or wave generated power, once we have cheap energy then we can build the infrastructure using the cheap energy source, its a win win. If were going to have it then build it on a flyover over the motorway network. Surely the principle of moving labour to the workplace is dated, we should be moving the workplace to the labour. If the HS2 is for tourism and then there is only going to be one benefactor and that will be the same old SE slice of England, This ain't London. Not sure if serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 It was opposition from Labour backbenchers which eventually stemmed the cuts. But I take your point. On HS2, the economic benefits have been exaggerated, and criticism censored, I think it's a folly. Billions of pounds of wasted money. Then you fail to understand its purpose. It may indeed end up a folly when viewed in isolation, but it will lead an improved transport infrastructure. We're clearly not going to agree on this. Billions spent on this could be spent more effectively elsewhere IMO. have to disagree Spend billions on welfare for example and it's gone forever .. spend billions on Infrastructure and you can generate more income ( and jobs ) in the long run and support both surely ? I'm not sure where the idea that Kingfisher is saying spend the Billions earmarked for HS2 on welfare, he just said elsewhere, is our choice on infrastructure limited to HS2 or nothing? Also how is money spent on welfare wasted and gone for ever, do the recipients set fire to it to keep them warm, no it is spent, usually in the local economy and on essentials that will retain the money within the UK economic system, i do agree keeping able bodied people underemployed is a waste of wealth. The wealth of their lost productive efforts is lost forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 But then HS2 is hardly the only infrastructure being built either, is it? Crossrail is well underway in London and I dread to think how much money has been spent on the M42 and M6 surrounding Birmingham over the past five years. The BBC report that the government plan to spend £28bn on roads by 2021. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 It was opposition from Labour backbenchers which eventually stemmed the cuts. But I take your point. On HS2, the economic benefits have been exaggerated, and criticism censored, I think it's a folly. Billions of pounds of wasted money. Then you fail to understand its purpose. It may indeed end up a folly when viewed in isolation, but it will lead an improved transport infrastructure. We're clearly not going to agree on this. Billions spent on this could be spent more effectively elsewhere IMO. have to disagree Spend billions on welfare for example and it's gone forever .. spend billions on Infrastructure and you can generate more income ( and jobs ) in the long run and support both surely ? I'm not sure where the idea that Kingfisher is saying spend the Billions earmarked for HS2 on welfare, he just said elsewhere, is our choice on infrastructure limited to HS2 or nothing? Also how is money spent on welfare wasted and gone for ever, do the recipients set fire to it to keep them warm, no it is spent, usually in the local economy and on essentials that will retain the money within the UK economic system, i do agree keeping able bodied people underemployed is a waste of wealth. The wealth of their lost productive efforts is lost forever. I didn't say KF had suggested spending it on welfare , i just said for example ... he could have been suggesting we spend it on bombs to rain holy war down on Iraq for all I know Spending money on the local economy is great ,I'm sure Tesco thank everyone for their continued support .... but the HS2 link potentially allows for business regeneration of areas and foreign investment and new money ... take a look at somewhere like Sunderland .. 20% of the community were unemployed in the late 80's .. and then along came Nissan and as a result that area was regenerated with the creation of housing, retail parks and business centres on former shipbuilding sites.... that plant was subsidised by the UK tax payer but it created jobs in that area , got people off welfare and also generated new money in that area ... arguably giving unemployed people money for cigarettes and booze ( Sterotype alert) isn't going to have the same effect ..is it ? so that's kinda where i was coming from in suggesting it's better spent on projects rather than welfare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) Fair enough, but by choosing welfare even as an example it comes very close to an insinuation, but please explain how in your example when talking about the money, "It's gone forever" It seems you are confusing money and wealth. I happen to agree it's a huge waste of wealth to under employ able bodied people, Just as it is unfair to underpay in monetary terms for the wealth of their labours Edited March 19, 2014 by blandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 How is HS1 doing. All I can find is this less than glowing article from 2011. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/8423638/High-speed-rail-Britains-first-link-hasnt-worked-as-planned-say-critics.html It basically says it had led to reduced services on the old network, increasing overcrowding. People hadn't moved over to HS1 as its expensive and only stops at St Pancras in the capital, so time savings are lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 How is HS1 doing. All I can find is this less than glowing article from 2011. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/8423638/High-speed-rail-Britains-first-link-hasnt-worked-as-planned-say-critics.html It basically says it had led to reduced services on the old network, increasing overcrowding. People hadn't moved over to HS1 as its expensive and only stops at St Pancras in the capital, so time savings are lost. Since we are resurrecting old articles I've just read an old article from the sept 28th 1825 copy of the Times saying how the Stockton Darlington railway was a flop and would never take off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts