CI Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) Heathrow Express to Central London is 15 mins actually. I really wish people would do their research ;-) Edited February 6, 2013 by CI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 I'd like if you could elaborate on some of those points Ron. I'm especially curious about sweeping statements re: entire network needing upgrading to HS2 standards, all the rolling stock needing upgrading, branch lines and the fact that we cant engineer like the Victorians. It's quite a lot more difficult to get shit done today because unlike Victorian times, a brown paper bag stuffed with a huge bribe is not how we do business any more despite what the public perception is. I don’t think I made my point properly. Basically we need to think bigger. The HS network is all well and good, but the rest of our network is poor. Why can’t we have all mainlines made up the HS spec? (I know the cost would be enormous) but come on UK PLC lets go balls to the wall! What can’t we re-open all redundant / derelict lines. I know the village I live in would benefit greatly. My point about the Victorians was that they over-engineered everything. Look at Armstrong’s Tyne Bridge, Barlow’s work on the Manchester and Birmingham line, Bazalgette’s sewers, all of Brunel’s work, Greathead's work, Telford’s aqueduct, I could go on. My point is there buildings, bridges, tunnels etc. have lasted 100’s of years through change that could not have been anticipated. They have gone above and beyond what they were originally designed for. Nowadays we embark on projects that have a shelf life of 30, 40 50 years max. We do things on a piecemeal basis rather than seeing the bigger picture. If you work in an office look out of you window and look at how many buildings from the 60’s and 70’s are being torn down for new office blocks. I bet in 30 years they will be tearing them down again. Wasteful, naïve, pointless. I think the HS2 will be great for Brum but its small beer and we need to think bigger. A few more questions with regards to your points: Which HS network is good? Which parts are poor? I cant really speak with any level of experience for the entire network and I've spent eight hours a day on trains for the last fifteen years. The WCML seems pretty decent as far as I can tell. It's full to bursting south of Birmingham/Rugby, but it's fast and seems reliable enough. The Great Western is being electrified, the East Coast seems busy, MML; busy. There are tons of others I cant speak for. How do you know? Why cant we have all mainlines made up to this spec? Because there are too many stations on them at the moment. There are 11 stations between Birmingham & Coventry, it's barely 20 miles. There are 14 stations between Birmingham & Leamington Spa on the Chiltern route to London. Again, it's barely 20 miles. You get this in every major metropolitan area. You have to run stopping services between the express trains, stoppers slow expresses down no matter how cleverly you path the trains. It's also difficult to speed up existing lines much beyond 100-125mph even if there are plenty of trains which will go faster. The current signalling standards on existing lines is only deemed safe up to 125mph. There are literally hundreds of areas of track where the curvature of the line means trains cant go full speed over them. This wasnt a big deal when the lines were built and the very fastest trains were chuffing along at 60-70 mph and had to stop for water every hundred miles, but now trains would be capable of thundering along at 250mph forever (or at least until they run out of track) you need to build a line which allows them to do that on. It needs to be straight and it doesnt need a local station every three miles on it. You also need a good suburban railway. By and large I think we already have that. Certainly in London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds and a few other similarly sized places. Yes, they are overcrowded at peak hours but then so are the roads. Have you seen the A40 at 6pm? Sometimes you just have to suck it up. Why cant we re open all the old lines? Well, and this is speaking as somebody who has a vested interest in the railways running, not all of them were worth it. A lot of them ceased to be relevant once the car was invented. There are plenty that were closed that never should have been (Great Central, Oxford - Cambridge, Stratford - Honeybourne are three I can think of off the top of my head, there are loads more) and some of them have been reopened, some of them are in the process of being rebuilt and some cannot be rebuild because the land they once occupied now has roads or buildings on top of it. The Victorian buildings point is an interesting one. I love it. The stations were works of art, but some of the viaducts and tunnels they built in the mid 19th century were sensational including tons of stuff the public never gets to see. The Great Western Mainline between Paddington and Bristol is one of the greatest feats of engineering of all time, literally no compromise was taken in building that thing, but it was built at the height of the Empire when London was essentially the capital city of the world and we had more money than we knew what to do with and it didnt matter if a hundred blokes died during the construction of the job. Those days are long gone and they will never be coming back so we have to work to a budget these days, and health & safety has to be stuck to. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstonMartyn88 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 FWIW I was massively in favour of HS2 when I was living in Brum... then in September I moved down to Buckinghamshire, and let's just say now that I'm seeing the areas that it is due to go through I'm starting to see why the eco-mentalists are going eco mental. Having said that I can easily see tickets being £100+, they'll have to claw the money back somehow and it will come out of people's pockets who are stupid enough to pay to go on it (that will include me at least twice) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 It'll be more like £500+ at peak times. Some 'eco-mentalists' are in favour of it as it could lessen short-haul flights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 The Great Western is not being electrified; or rather a very limited part of it; its only London>Swansea and the Welsh Valleys. It doesn’t include the line to Devon and Cornwall. Not that electrification matters much; how much of our freight traffic is still pulled by diesels under the wires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Burgundy Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 I'd like if you could elaborate on some of those points Ron. I'm especially curious about sweeping statements re: entire network needing upgrading to HS2 standards, all the rolling stock needing upgrading, branch lines and the fact that we cant engineer like the Victorians. It's quite a lot more difficult to get shit done today because unlike Victorian times, a brown paper bag stuffed with a huge bribe is not how we do business any more despite what the public perception is. I don’t think I made my point properly. Basically we need to think bigger. The HS network is all well and good, but the rest of our network is poor. Why can’t we have all mainlines made up the HS spec? (I know the cost would be enormous) but come on UK PLC lets go balls to the wall! What can’t we re-open all redundant / derelict lines. I know the village I live in would benefit greatly. My point about the Victorians was that they over-engineered everything. Look at Armstrong’s Tyne Bridge, Barlow’s work on the Manchester and Birmingham line, Bazalgette’s sewers, all of Brunel’s work, Greathead's work, Telford’s aqueduct, I could go on. My point is there buildings, bridges, tunnels etc. have lasted 100’s of years through change that could not have been anticipated. They have gone above and beyond what they were originally designed for. Nowadays we embark on projects that have a shelf life of 30, 40 50 years max. We do things on a piecemeal basis rather than seeing the bigger picture. If you work in an office look out of you window and look at how many buildings from the 60’s and 70’s are being torn down for new office blocks. I bet in 30 years they will be tearing them down again. Wasteful, naïve, pointless. I think the HS2 will be great for Brum but its small beer and we need to think bigger. A few more questions with regards to your points: Which HS network is good? Which parts are poor? I cant really speak with any level of experience for the entire network and I've spent eight hours a day on trains for the last fifteen years. The WCML seems pretty decent as far as I can tell. It's full to bursting south of Birmingham/Rugby, but it's fast and seems reliable enough. The Great Western is being electrified, the East Coast seems busy, MML; busy. There are tons of others I cant speak for. How do you know? Why cant we have all mainlines made up to this spec? Because there are too many stations on them at the moment. There are 11 stations between Birmingham & Coventry, it's barely 20 miles. There are 14 stations between Birmingham & Leamington Spa on the Chiltern route to London. Again, it's barely 20 miles. You get this in every major metropolitan area. You have to run stopping services between the express trains, stoppers slow expresses down no matter how cleverly you path the trains. It's also difficult to speed up existing lines much beyond 100-125mph even if there are plenty of trains which will go faster. The current signalling standards on existing lines is only deemed safe up to 125mph. There are literally hundreds of areas of track where the curvature of the line means trains cant go full speed over them. This wasnt a big deal when the lines were built and the very fastest trains were chuffing along at 60-70 mph and had to stop for water every hundred miles, but now trains would be capable of thundering along at 250mph forever (or at least until they run out of track) you need to build a line which allows them to do that on. It needs to be straight and it doesnt need a local station every three miles on it. You also need a good suburban railway. By and large I think we already have that. Certainly in London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds and a few other similarly sized places. Yes, they are overcrowded at peak hours but then so are the roads. Have you seen the A40 at 6pm? Sometimes you just have to suck it up. Why cant we re open all the old lines? Well, and this is speaking as somebody who has a vested interest in the railways running, not all of them were worth it. A lot of them ceased to be relevant once the car was invented. There are plenty that were closed that never should have been (Great Central, Oxford - Cambridge, Stratford - Honeybourne are three I can think of off the top of my head, there are loads more) and some of them have been reopened, some of them are in the process of being rebuilt and some cannot be rebuild because the land they once occupied now has roads or buildings on top of it. The Victorian buildings point is an interesting one. I love it. The stations were works of art, but some of the viaducts and tunnels they built in the mid 19th century were sensational including tons of stuff the public never gets to see. The Great Western Mainline between Paddington and Bristol is one of the greatest feats of engineering of all time, literally no compromise was taken in building that thing, but it was built at the height of the Empire when London was essentially the capital city of the world and we had more money than we knew what to do with and it didnt matter if a hundred blokes died during the construction of the job. Those days are long gone and they will never be coming back so we have to work to a budget these days, and health & safety has to be stuck to. Ignoring all of your points completely - do you know what might happen to the viaducts that spread out throuhgout Digbeth? Ive always wondered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Which ones? They are all in use except for the one which was never completed (ends by Halfords) unless I am missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 The talk of this bringing BHX within 30 mins of London is a total red herring. You'd be looking at a scenario where someone could fly from Europe into BHX via no frills for say £50, then be looking at a £300 one way fast train ticket into London? Doesnt stack does it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Burgundy Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Which ones? They are all in use except for the one which was never completed (ends by Halfords) unless I am missing something. Mainly Duddeston - http://digbeth.org/digbeth/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/viaduct-poster-DiG.jpg But i can see others on google earth i think. Heres another article: http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/residents-group-pushes-ahead-with-plans-150820 im not sure if thats Duddeston or another branch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 (edited) Those two are the same viaduct, the one I was referencing is the same one too. I have no idea who even owns it. The garden thing has been spoken about for a while though. The Great Western is not being electrified; or rather a very limited part of it; its only London>Swansea and the Welsh Valleys. It doesn’t include the line to Devon and Cornwall. Not that electrification matters much; how much of our freight traffic is still pulled by diesels under the wires. Oxford is getting done too (actually Southampton - Nuneaton is) which opens up all kinds of possibilities with regards to new traction. Having electrics on stopping services between Reading & Paddington should ease congestion because they accelerate so much more quickly than the 166s that currently do a lot of the donkey work on that line. Edited February 7, 2013 by The_Rev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) Time for a bump, they have announced a bit more about what is happening. There is going to be a big glass tunnel running from Moor Street down to Curzon Street, parallel to the new park. It will certainly make the city centre feel bigger, but it might balls up my drive to work... Seven platforms at the new station, new viaduct coming into the city. I hope they find something to do with the old Curzon Street station building though, it's grade 1 listed so it cant be knocked down but this would be a perfect opportunity to do something brilliant with it. Edited February 27, 2014 by The_Rev 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Time for a bump, they have announced a bit more about what is happening. There is going to be a big glass tunnel running from Moor Street down to Curzon Street, parallel to the new park. It will certainly make the city centre feel bigger, but it might balls up my drive to work... I have the nickname already - The Keep-net! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Now might be the time to get into the window cleaning caper because the guy who gets the contract to keep that place clean is set for life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Now might be the time to get into the window cleaning caper because the guy who gets the contract to keep that place clean is set for life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-cleaning_glass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Don't know what to think about HS2. It sounds like a huge waste of money but it should be good for Birmingham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Heathrow Express to Central London is 15 mins actually. I really wish people would do their research ;-) depends which terminal terminal 5 is 21 mins average journey time , terminal 4 even longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 i really like that design, like it when they do that with structural glass rather than cladding, the whatever its called circus shopping centre in Bristol for example, great design Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted February 27, 2014 Administrator Share Posted February 27, 2014 Don't know what to think about HS2. It sounds like a huge waste of money but it should be good for Birmingham. The rail network is creaking and numbers of journeys continue to rise. As a commuter on the wolves to brum line I can tell you that the line is at capacity. There is no realistic way to add more capacity to the existing lines. HS2 will add extra capacity to the network and improve my experience. It will also mean that the currently fully utilised lines will have a period when capacity expansion can be performed before they become saturated again. I hope that this opportunity isn't wasted. Spending on infrastructure is always good. Spending on infrastructure in a recession is a no-brainer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 The pinch points are in and out of London mainly, and this is what this folly is supposed to address. Fifty odd billion could be far better spent helping other regions economy's grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted February 27, 2014 Administrator Share Posted February 27, 2014 The pinch points are in and out of London mainly, and this is what this folly is supposed to address. Fifty odd billion could be far better spent helping other regions economy's grow. I don't believe you'd say that if you used trains regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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