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peterms

Tunisia, Egypt, Libya... Arab Countries in Revolt

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They should just ban the flag and any other flag that represents torture, killing, murder, hate etc.  You know like the US or Israeli flags.

You really cant compare Israel to Isis..

 

have you been to Palestine ? they have stuck a wall around them and are basically killing them through attrition

 

sure you can get a permit and go and work in Israel ..but the permit costs more than you'll earn not to mention the intimidating border crossing each time .. I did it on a mini bus full of Palestinians , having 2 armed soldiers with fingers on triggers boarding the bus to check documentation gives you an uneasy feeling and that was for someone who doesn't look remotely Palestinian

 

true the Israelis aren't lobbing heads of in barbaric practises but there is more than one way to kill someone

 

I wonder why they built that wall, maybe they were tired of all the suicide bombers popping up evrywhere ?

 

Don't take this as a dig or in the wrong way  , but I think you need to go away and do a bit of reading up on the subject before commenting

 

Dont take this as a dig but i think it's you that needs to do some reading about the subject, i was pro palestine a long time ago, but the more i learned about the conflict and the more i read, the more i leaned over to israel.

 

I still have some friends who are pro palestine, and they can only see things from one side.

 

I blame the palestinian leaders for the mess the palestinian people are in.

 

Let's put it like this, If the arabs laid down their weapons there would be peace, if the jews laid down their weapons they would be massacred.

 

I said it first so ner  :P   and i've got better things to be doing right now than entering a pissing contest about who knows the most about Middle East affairs (but it's me by the way :D) but I guess we've entered that zone where nothing I can say will change your view so not a lot else for me to add really

 

Well i might be wrong, That's just my view on it, i dont know evrything about the conflict, far from it.

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I don't think a comparison between Israel and ISIS is very credible, the West Bank today is more like a 3.5 star version of the Warsaw Ghetto circa 1944...

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i always thought the sun was gospel.

 

Good god Ruge, really?

 

Murdoch's stable: The Sun, The Times and Sky News being the best known offenders in the UK, are utter shite and not to be trusted. They've had a big part in the fracture of the Union, with both victorious factions - the SNP and the Tories, grateful for the propaganda. Sky's meddling in the US shaped the outcome of a presidential election.

 

It's amazing that Harmsworth, the owner of the Mail, hasn't suffocated on the cock he's constantly sucking.

 

I say that from first hand experience of 3 stories, each of which was absolutely wrong in absolutely every detail they printed - and they'd been given the truth first hand, in my presence.

 

You believe everything you read in the press until you appear in their pages.

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I don't think a comparison between Israel and ISIS is very credible, the West Bank today is more like a 3.5 star version of the Warsaw Ghetto circa 1944...

 

I went through the West Bank the other month on my way from Bethlehem to Jericho   ..it's a strange place to say the least

 

We sat in a traffic jam for ages as the place was rammed with Israeli's who had popped over to buy all their ironmonger type goods as they are far cheaper  than in Israel

 

and then 2 weeks later the very same streets were drove down had mortar shells going off all over the place

 

 

it's a strange old place but like a lot of places you visit , timing seems to be everything

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I don't think a comparison between Israel and ISIS is very credible, the West Bank today is more like a 3.5 star version of the Warsaw Ghetto circa 1944...

Not entirely sure I understand the logic of this post. Comparing A to B isn't valid because the product of A is like an upgrade of the product of a completely unrelated C?

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i always thought the sun was gospel.

 

Good god Ruge, really?

 

Murdoch's stable: The Sun, The Times and Sky News being the best known offenders in the UK, are utter shite and not to be trusted. They've had a big part in the fracture of the Union, with both victorious factions - the SNP and the Tories, grateful for the propaganda. Sky's meddling in the US shaped the outcome of a presidential election.

 

It's amazing that Harmsworth, the owner of the Mail, hasn't suffocated on the cock he's constantly sucking.

 

I say that from first hand experience of 3 stories, each of which was absolutely wrong in absolutely every detail they printed - and they'd been given the truth first hand, in my presence.

 

You believe everything you read in the press until you appear in their pages.

 

i always had the sun second only to the bible.

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i'll never get over reading about this very beautiful and very intelligent palestinian woman becoming a suicide bomber and killing herself for the struggle her people were going through. she was a lawyer and i would not say she was an extremist but she felt she had to go and blow herself up and kill a load of innocent people, tragic.

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I'm no fan of Israel. At all. I've been pretty stringent in my standpoint on that. Even my dissertation was on the extent to which Israel's actions in the conflict constitutes state terrorism.

But I listened a podcast the other day with a guy called Sam Harris. He's an outspoken atheist and 'intellectual'. He was asked why he wasn't as harsh in his criticism of Israel and Jews as he is of Muslims and overtly Islamic countries (lolcoshesracist notwithstanding). It was an interesting listen, in short and missing the nuance he is critical of both but Islam etc represents a worse threat.

I mention this as he made a point I'd not heard before, to my knowledge, about the conflict, that startled me somehow. He noted that Israel has committed atrocities in the conflict. But then he raised this point - what would each side do if they had the capability of doing whatever they wanted? Israel is entirely capable of eliminating the Palestinians. They have an advanced military, they have resources. They could tomorrow crush Gaza and the West Bank in their entirety, forever. They do have the capability of doing anything already in essence. But they don't wipe out Gaza.

Hamas, on the other hand, has the destruction of Israel in it's fundamental doctrines. You'd have to assume, given that capability, they would follow their charter. Their actions without that power suggests as much.

Of course that doesn't mean that all Israelis wouldn't wipe out Palestinian territories, or that all Palestinians would set out to wipe out Israelis.

I'm not sure how I feel about this point, whether I agree or not, to one extent or another, etc. But it caught my thoughts, for such a simplistic point.

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Similar can be said about America. How many times do you hear 'well America are the real terrorists! / 'they've killed more people than ISIS!' etc. Could you imagine if ISIS (and a great many other groups/countries) had America's military might, we'd all be dead already.

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I don't think a comparison between Israel and ISIS is very credible, the West Bank today is more like a 3.5 star version of the Warsaw Ghetto circa 1944...

Not entirely sure I understand the logic of this post. Comparing A to B isn't valid because the product of A is like an upgrade of the product of a completely unrelated C?

Fair comment, it wasn't very clear. IS tend to go in for swift if grizzly execution (of males anyway) when they target minorities.

By contrast the Israelis wall them in, harass them, kill arbitrarily, cut them off from their arable land and water supplies and occasionally bomb or shell the crap out of them. The Warsaw Ghetto comment was in reference to that, although clearly it's 'Ghetto light' in comparison to the original. Different MO but broadly the same end state - i.e. the target group eventually becoming, ahem, ex-minorities.

I suppose that in the end Zionism and Wahhabism both represent the absolute worst instincts of the Abrahamic faiths, the poster boys of religious hatred. I don't however think most Israelis fit that description, while 100% of IS certainly do.

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Bombing the shit out of Gaza every couple years, imprisoning them, controlling all of their supplies right down to building material, continuing to build houses on land that is not theres against the geneva conventions.

Id say israel are on par with isis if not worse.

Also, of course hamas will rocket israel, imagine somebody moved into your house pushed you out and made you live in the shed at the bottom of the garden controlling all of your supplies. What would you do? Try and get your house back?

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I'm no fan of Israel. At all. I've been pretty stringent in my standpoint on that. Even my dissertation was on the extent to which Israel's actions in the conflict constitutes state terrorism.

But I listened a podcast the other day with a guy called Sam Harris. He's an outspoken atheist and 'intellectual'. He was asked why he wasn't as harsh in his criticism of Israel and Jews as he is of Muslims and overtly Islamic countries (lolcoshesracist notwithstanding). It was an interesting listen, in short and missing the nuance he is critical of both but Islam etc represents a worse threat.

I mention this as he made a point I'd not heard before, to my knowledge, about the conflict, that startled me somehow. He noted that Israel has committed atrocities in the conflict. But then he raised this point - what would each side do if they had the capability of doing whatever they wanted? Israel is entirely capable of eliminating the Palestinians. They have an advanced military, they have resources. They could tomorrow crush Gaza and the West Bank in their entirety, forever. They do have the capability of doing anything already in essence. But they don't wipe out Gaza.

Hamas, on the other hand, has the destruction of Israel in it's fundamental doctrines. You'd have to assume, given that capability, they would follow their charter. Their actions without that power suggests as much.

Of course that doesn't mean that all Israelis wouldn't wipe out Palestinian territories, or that all Palestinians would set out to wipe out Israelis.

I'm not sure how I feel about this point, whether I agree or not, to one extent or another, etc. But it caught my thoughts, for such a simplistic point.

https://youtu.be/HX-UPcrejHc

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I'm rather unsure about the dubious logic that takes him from 'because the Israelis could kill everyone in Gaza tomorrow but don't' it means 'when they drop a bomb on a beach and kill children then it's almost certainly an accident'.

I also question the claim that they take great pains not to kill children and non combatants because with every child killed they 'edge ever closer to becoming an international pariah'.

 

As soon as he started going in to that kind of thinking I hard to turn off because it was like listening to a watered down version of Mark Regev.

Fair enough about the Hamas stuff and the difficulty Israel finds itself in sat surrounded by peoples that would like to see it (and Jews) no longer exist.

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Yeah that was part of my issue with it. There are some leaps and assumptions. I agree to some extent, I don't think the Israelis are going to wipe Palestinians off the face of the earth, or even want to, whereas I think most of the Middle East would commit genocide of Jews in a heartbeat, but I don't think Israel is that bothered if, in defending itself, it kills more kids than it could do... Hence then being a state terrorist.

And so on.

I think there's some good stuff in there, it isn't without error though.

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Yeah that was part of my issue with it. There are some leaps and assumptions. I agree to some extent, I don't think the Israelis are going to wipe Palestinians off the face of the earth, or even want to, whereas I think most of the Middle East would commit genocide of Jews in a heartbeat, but I don't think Israel is that bothered if, in defending itself, it kills more kids than it could do... Hence then being a state terrorist.

And so on.

I think there's some good stuff in there, it isn't without error though.

I think Israel are already wiping Palestine off the map tbh, if you look at the 1967 borders compared to now where Israel refuse to actually confirm where their borders are.

And yes Hamas would take the land of the Palestinians back off Israel in a heartbeat if they could.

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