The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Awol]

 

If you're not prepared to watch and then defend their handiwork, please don't attempt to draw a moral equivalence between the International Brigades in Spain and those going to join AQ and ISIS in Syria and Iraq.

The good news for you is that I wasn't drawing (or attempting to draw) a moral equivalence between those two groups. I was attempting, probably rather clumsily, to highlight what would appear to be the messy and rather conflicting nature of UK government policy (at any point in time) in a couple of areas: one, in the foreign policy in Syria/Iraq/Iran and other places; two, of allowing or not allowing people to leave the shores in order to fight abroad in a not officially recognized capacity.

As for the 'defend their handiwork' nonsense - I would say that's a grossly stupid case of putting words in someone's mouth but you probably already knew that.

 

 

Yes, it was a rather clumsy attempt. Apart from the glaringly obvious difference in circumstances between the Spanish and Syrian civil wars, and leaving aside the fact that the conflicts are separated by 80 years, in Spain the British volunteers fought for the elected government, not for head chopping psychopaths.

 

I do agree and have argued on this thread that UK foreign policy is a joke and has been the signature of all governments since 1997, that doesn't detract from the fact that those going to the Syrian conflict are the lowest of the low and a massive threat to domestic security.

 

As for grossly stupid comments... 

Would you be joyously chanting while you were doing it?

I was simply responding in kind.

[snowychap]

Apart from the glaringly obvious difference in circumstances between the Spanish and Syrian civil wars, and leaving aside the fact that the conflicts are separated by 80 years, in Spain the British volunteers fought for the elected government, not for head chopping psychopaths.

The good news for you is that I wasn't drawing (or attempting to draw) a moral equivalence between those two groups (or, for clarification, any equivalence); I was attempting, rather clumsily as I admitted, to highlight what would appear to be the messy and rather conflicting nature of UK government policy.

As for grossly stupid comments... 

Would you be joyously chanting while you were doing it?

I was simply responding in kind.

You were the one bringing up your desire to be killing these people (or to have others kill them on your behalf).

My question, though it may have contained an implied criticism of your stance, did at least afford you the opportunity to tell us something about the manner in which you would want it done.

[Awol]

I'm reminded of a comment by one General C Krulak - and shall now take his advice.

[TrentVilla]

I'm reminded of a comment by one General C Krulak - and shall now take his advice.

 

Phone Nicky Keye?

[snowychap]

I doubt Nicky Keye takes work calls this late at night.

 

Edit: Damn you, Trent!

Edited July 9, 2014 by snowychap

[Awol]

Should I have put a smiley to indicate the intended sarcasm? I don't recall many articles about the abundance of British mercenaries in virtually every warzone being charged with terrorism offences.

Oh no, you shouldn't. I was joining in, I hoped.

Sorry, I am dim.

If you can't tell the difference between guarding engineers, aid workers and the like (private security) and fighting against a foreign government for money (mercenary), then I'd have to agree.

Pathetic.

What, your untrue and bone stupid statement about British mercenaries and terrorism offences? Unless it was an attempt at a joke then yes it was pathetic.

[Rugeley Villa]

I watched a documentary on youtube of isis, beheadings were shown and I was disgusted. just a load of gangsters hiding behind the religion tag. they go against everything which they preach, cant wait until the bastards get taken out by whoever. we need the muslim world to turn against these pigs.

[Glarmorgan]

Supporting those Brits who go to fight for ISIS and friends will blow up in your faces as soon as they will head back, having acquired a great deal of "how to kill dozens" knowledge, alongside the ideology to explain why such acts are a necessity.

 

And most of the Muslim world will do nothing to turn against these groups. The Saudis will try to harness Extremist Group A to their cause while the Iranis will do the same with Extremist Group B and so on. This will go on till Groups A and B will set their sights on Saudi Arabia or Iran, explaining how these countries have lost the way and needs to find a new path, preferably, a path with a lot of beheaded corpses.

[omariqy]

On Gaza there is so much I could say but all has been said before. I just wish for innocent lives on both sides to be spared, I did find this website interesting. http://www.ifamericansknew.org.

[Glarmorgan]

On Gaza there is so much I could say but all has been said before. I just wish for innocent lives on both sides to be spared, I did find this website interesting. http://www.ifamericansknew.org.

 

Regardless of what your thoughts of this conflicts are, please don't tell me you're actually looking at this website as your source of knowledge. If I'll try being polite, I'll state there are a lot of "inconsistencies" in the information presented there. I urge you to try and find a more reliable source to gather knowledge. The "History" section is preposterous. Again, you can support the Palestinian cause, but the whole descriptions of the 1948 and 1967 wars are... well... let's say it like this - since I hold a lot of knowledge regarding the 67 war, opening its section with a sentence such as "Israel again decided to attack its neighbors" is just far fetched. Where's the background? Why did Israel acted? What was the state of the Arab armies at the time? Why have Egypt and Jordan signed a treaty, handing the command of the Jordanian army to an Egyptian General? 

Like... come on!!!!

[tonyh29]

Gotta be honest, can't see anything but good coming from a US/Iran Alliance.

Could begin breaking down some major barriers, tho I know that's blue sky

thinking

The word on the street of Tehran is that Rouhani is just Ahmadinejad without the dumb public statements ... But they hope to have better relations with the US ( and British for that matter )

The us embassy is still covered in slogans and anti American murals are around the place so maybe a tin of paint would be a good place to start

The sanctions are hurting , in Tehran there is actually an illegal "stock market " operating out on the street , its obviously illegal but in full view of the police etc as without it Iran would be suffering even more , this market is a way of acquiring those banned goods

But there isn't any animosity aimed at westerners , quite the opposite in fact , from school children to old ladies they just want to say hello , ask where you are from and when you tell them ask why our national football team is so bad

Even the police I had to check in with at Esfahan railway station offered me donuts , I gave them a handful of foxes glacier fruits in return which went down well , it's seriously just such a warm and friendly place

[snowychap]

Supporting those Brits who go to fight for ISIS and friends will blow up in your faces...

Who is doing that?

[AVFCforever1991]

 

On Gaza there is so much I could say but all has been said before. I just wish for innocent lives on both sides to be spared, I did find this website interesting. http://www.ifamericansknew.org.

 

Regardless of what your thoughts of this conflicts are, please don't tell me you're actually looking at this website as your source of knowledge. If I'll try being polite, I'll state there are a lot of "inconsistencies" in the information presented there. I urge you to try and find a more reliable source to gather knowledge. The "History" section is preposterous. Again, you can support the Palestinian cause, but the whole descriptions of the 1948 and 1967 wars are... well... let's say it like this - since I hold a lot of knowledge regarding the 67 war, opening its section with a sentence such as "Israel again decided to attack its neighbors" is just far fetched. Where's the background? Why did Israel acted? What was the state of the Arab armies at the time? Why have Egypt and Jordan signed a treaty, handing the command of the Jordanian army to an Egyptian General? 

Like... come on!!!!

 

 

Do you have any figures on the death ratio between Palestinian's and Israeli's? Please enlighten us..

[omariqy]

I wasn't talking about the history page.  History can be skewed depending on what side you're on.  I was more concerned with the stats.  I am baffled how anyone can defend Israel. Don't get me wrong I am no fan of Hamas but how many Israelis have been killed in these latest round of rocket attacks?  Answer 0.  Palestinaians basically live in an open air prison, they do not have basic human rights and innoncent lives are lost on a consistent basis.  I read that since 2010 an innocent child has been killed on average every 3 days.

[Meath_Villan]

One thing we can all agree ....its a **** mess 

[chrisp65]

 

Gotta be honest, can't see anything but good coming from a US/Iran Alliance.

Could begin breaking down some major barriers, tho I know that's blue sky

thinking

The word on the street of Tehran is that Rouhani is just Ahmadinejad without the dumb public statements ... But they hope to have better relations with the US ( and British for that matter )

The us embassy is still covered in slogans and anti American murals are around the place so maybe a tin of paint would be a good place to start

The sanctions are hurting , in Tehran there is actually an illegal "stock market " operating out on the street , its obviously illegal but in full view of the police etc as without it Iran would be suffering even more , this market is a way of acquiring those banned goods

But there isn't any animosity aimed at westerners , quite the opposite in fact , from school children to old ladies they just want to say hello , ask where you are from and when you tell them ask why our national football team is so bad

Even the police I had to check in with at Esfahan railway station offered me donuts , I gave them a handful of foxes glacier fruits in return which went down well , it's seriously just such a warm and friendly place

 

 

the last thing governments need is word getting out that people are just people and want a nice life for their kids and decent TV reception when the football is on

 

seriously, the more we can all actually meet each other the better - it's just a shame that so often that meeting is too late and is basically a quick Christmas football kickabout before shelling starts again

 

it'd be good if the americans didn't bring their personal guns to the big world people's meeting and it would be nice if the sunni's didn't turn up in a car bomb, but essentially the vast majority of people just want to get on, whether they are North Koreans, lesbians, mormons, Iranians whatever

 

my very limited experience was in meeting Libyans over the course of a few years and all any of them wanted to do was show you family photos and go out for a meal instead of a formal meeting - admittedly at one point I did think they'd kidnapped my boss, but that was a cultural mis understanding as he was whisked away in an old Merc by men in mirror sunglasses 

[Glarmorgan]

I wasn't talking about the history page.  History can be skewed depending on what side you're on.  I was more concerned with the stats.  I am baffled how anyone can defend Israel. Don't get me wrong I am no fan of Hamas but how many Israelis have been killed in these latest round of rocket attacks?  Answer 0.  Palestinaians basically live in an open air prison, they do not have basic human rights and innoncent lives are lost on a consistent basis.  I read that since 2010 an innocent child has been killed on average every 3 days.

 

The number of casualties, as hard as it is to claim so - is nothing but an evidence for Israel's ability to defend its citizens. I won't get into the "Hammas is shooting from within densly populated areas", but I will say that - if Israel has 30 casualties - would that be "better"? or 300? or 3000? How can one claim the the number of casualties implies of morality or humanity? World War 2 saw 7.5 million German casualties. The Jewish people had "only" 6 million. What can we learn from that? Absolutely nothing.

 

As an Israeli who spends some of his days in secured areas due to the rockets the Hammas fired towards my city (no army bases or forces near, in case anyone wondered) - I will tell you what I honestly believe - if Hammas was to leave the way he chose (calling for the annihilation of Israel and the Jews) and if Hammas would not fire a single rocket towards Israel - there will be zero casualties in Gaza strip. Zero kids, zero men, zero women. Zero. Absolutely zero. But for their reasons - they choose a different path and when they do this, I refuse to apologize for being the superior side, holding great weapons of both offense and defense. Hammas knows who they're up against and they still choose to wage war. Also, the net is full with video clips of the Hammas urging civilians to act as human shields, while to Hammas leaders themselves are in safe grounds. 

 

And during the last days of fights - Israel keep supplying Gaza with groceries, electricity, fuel and so on.

 

In regard to the website - without knowing the real figures (I can try to look that into, but the Palestinians and Israelis see things... "differently") - you can't rely on a website falsifying the past. For crying out loud - talking about the peaceful Arabs who lived here before 1948? Haj Amin Al Husseini - their leader - was an ally of one, Adolf Hitler. Collaborating with the SS, helping the recruitment of Muslim soldiers from Bosnia to fight alongside the Germans. In return he only asked the Nazis to help him solve the Jewish problem in Palestine, using their extremely gentle methods. This is not a secret - Google it. If someone is lying on Page 1 of his website, I find it hard to believe what's written on the other pages.

BTW, in contrast to the West Bank, Israel withdrew all its forces and civilian settlements from Gaza Strip. There are zero Israelis there - what prevents the Hammas from making Gaza the pearl of the middle east? Supporting the citizens? Expanding the economy? No tanks, no settlement - just Palestinians.

[Rovers13]

I'm not sure about comparing the Palestinians right now to the Germans in world war 2.

[AVFCforever1991]

Surely in this instance, the Israelis are the oppressors...

Edited July 13, 2014 by AVFCforever1991

[Glarmorgan]

I'm not sure about comparing the Palestinians right now to the Germans in world war 2.

 

From all I wrote - and this is what you come up with? Have I compared the Palestinians to the Germans? or to the Jews or to the Mongols? I merely gave an example of how the numbers tell you nothing about the parties fighting.

 

OK, here's another example - Falklands. Argentina - 649 casualties. Great Britain - 255 casualties. As I am quite certain you know of this war more than I do - Can you please tell me what can you learn from these figures, other than the British army superiority?