8pints Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 What does he do thats any good ? - does he have pace ? - dominant in the air ?, strong in the tackle?, good reading of the game ? To me he doesn't have any of those. He just seems to be there. He hasn't progressed since breaking into the team. Championship defender for me. I think he's strong in the tackle and reads the game well. I'm of the opinion though that the defence have had to do all the defending and the attackers have had to do all the attacking these last few games. The midfield have been non-existent, heaping huge pressure on the defence and attack. With better players in the midfield supporting him, he and the rest of the defence would look a lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 He has a hard task right now given the players he's playing with. However he's not showing much to suggest that he'll become a good player at this level. He just doesn't really excel at anything. I definitely agree that he hasn't progressed since his initial breakthrough into the first team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Not convinced Clark is anymore than a Championship level defender. Would be happy if we sold him and got someone more experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Yep I also agree that he doesn't seem to have any particular strong points.. Whereas Baker is at least good in the air and tackle (Ohhh matron ) The way he rushes out of the back line to win the ball is very concerning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) Ciaren Clark is a playmaking defender. He's probably not as defensively robust as Vlaar/Baker but he is comparatively comfortable with the ball and can take it up field and contribute to the attack, which is important in a modern central defence. He plays the "Rio Ferdinand" role not the "Nemanja Vidic". Ciaren Clark stats http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/24 Good Passing - 82%. Best of our central defenders. Anticipation - 2.5 interceptions per game - Best of our central defenders and best in the squad. Ball skills - Clark has not been dispossessed whilst in possession of the ball all season. Every other regular player in the squad has. Offside trap - Statistics suggest he is not quite as good as Baker and Herd but definitely better than Vlaar, Lowton and Bennett. The difference is probably due to Clark's familiarity with Baker and Herd in the reserve/academy sides, and lack of familiarity with Vlaar, Lowton and Bennett. Clark has played with the new guys many times more than Herd and Baker have. It's probable Vlaar, Lowton and Bennett have depressed Clark's offside stat, as Baker and Herd have only played CD with Clark in it. Clearances - Clark makes the most clearances per game of any other player in the defence or squad. This suggests he has comparatively good defensive positioning - in the right place at the right time to make the clearance. Bad Heading - wins 60% headers. Herd, Vlaar, Baker are 70% + Undecided Tackles - makes very few tackles. Ciaren Clark has made only 19 tackles the whole season. To put that in perspective, Barry Bannan has played fewer games but has made 27 tackles. Brett Holman has made 48 tackles. This could be his style of play as a central defender. Should you risk a tackle in front of your penalty box (or in the penalty box) that could be given as a foul and allow the opposition a free shot at goal from the free kick? The way he rushes out of the back line to win the ball is very concerning Notice the high number of interceptions Clark makes? It's his defensive style to anticipate to stop the forward getting the ball so he doesn't need to tackle. Edited January 3, 2013 by Con Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Being poor at heading and tackling isn't great for a centre back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Notice the high number of interceptions Clark makes? It's his defensive style to anticipate to stop the forward getting the ball so he doesn't need to tackle. Agreed but when he misses (and he has a lot this season) he either commits a foul or exposes the rest of the defence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Being poor at heading and tackling isn't great for a centre back! Clark is a "modern" centre back*. The extra ball skills nearly always come at a price - worse defending. That is why he needs to be paired with a traditional centre back. * Arsene Wenger usually plays 2 modern centre backs, Koscielny and Vermaelen. Tony Pulis usually plays 2 traditional centre backs, Huth and Shawcross. Alex Ferguson likes to plays one of each, Ferdinand and Vidic, but has been playing 2 modern centre backs (or 1 modern + 1 not that good CB) since Vidic got injured. Brenden Rodgers has two traditional centre-backs, Agger and Skrtel. Roberto Mancini has Vincent Kompany, the complete defender. Rafael Benitez has moved David Lulz to midfield because he doesn't want to 2 modern centre backs mucking about his back line (Lulz and Cahill). I think the one of each is best system. Spainish Euro winning team had one of each, Ramos and Pique, although Pique is good enough to be a playmaking centre back in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Con I'm seriously Concerned about you! Your at it again aarrgghhh..... Sometimes stats just don't paint you the whole picture for many reasons. I understand you feel they are a good way of backing an argument and your right to use them to a degree but you need to watch the games mate instead of quoting half a sentence in a post and using stats to appear intelligent in an opposing statement. I like Ciaran Clark however am not convinced with him at CB for the reason which mikeyp raised and you jumped on. You can say that Clark rushes out of defense to intercept the opposing player before he gets to the back line or you could say he's rushed out of position to carry out a midfielders job and left the back out of shape and allowed opposition players to penetrate the back line and that's happened a lot this season. The only stats you need to read mate is the league table, using player stats when the team is playing shit seems a little pointless as the only person you will convince is yourself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) Con I'm seriously Concerned about you! Your at it again aarrgghhh..... Sometimes stats just don't paint you the whole picture for many reasons. I understand you feel they are a good way of backing an argument and your right to use them to a degree but you need to watch the games mate instead of quoting half a sentence in a post and using stats to appear intelligent in an opposing statement. Stats provide a refreshing alternative to opinion that can get bogged down with emotion - stats are cold and objective - and add some "meat" to a discussion. I agree they don't tell you the whole story. I like Ciaran Clark however am not convinced with him at CB for the reason which mikeyp raised and you jumped on. You can say that Clark rushes out of defense to intercept the opposing player before he gets to the back line or you could say he's rushed out of position to carry out a midfielders job and left the back out of shape and allowed opposition players to penetrate the back line and that's happened a lot this season. The positive with Clark's approach is he doesn't give away free kicks close to the penalty box. If he let the player receive the ball the referee could interpret a tackle as a foul. Another positive is if Clark gets there first he can carry the ball forward and set up a counter attack. The big negative which people have spotted is if he doesn't get to the ball first he is totally out of position!! Someone needs to cover him or he needs to pick and choose the moments he rushes better. The only stats you need to read mate is the league table, using player stats when the team is playing shit seems a little pointless as the only person you will convince is yourself. The stats allow you to understand how the player plays. Nowhere have I said Ciaren Clark is a Champions League defender. Nowhere have I said the stats show this. The terms "good" and "bad" are value terms and nothing more... they can be used to describe a pub team player, or World Cup Hall of Famers. So there is definitely a place for citing stats, you just gotta understand how they're used. Edited January 3, 2013 by Con Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I don't like his style of play, it's not dominant enough for a defender. He likes to intercept the ball, but isn't particularly quick, doesn't read that game amazingly well and isn't particularly strong. Give me Baker every day of the week. A player that I like as cover, but not a first teamer and not captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I don't like his style of play, it's not dominant enough for a defender. He likes to intercept the ball, but isn't particularly quick, doesn't read that game amazingly well and isn't particularly strong. Give me Baker every day of the week. A player that I like as cover, but not a first teamer and not captain. We are at a moment in time when we are constantly on the defensive, so we only get to see the negative side of Clark's game exposed, not the positive he adds to an attack. Clark scored a goal earlier this season, against Newcastle. If we signed Vermaelen or Koscienly from Arsenal they would perform as bad or as worse than Clark. Clark's style of player has a place in a modern attacking, Premiership side - but preferably one that has lots of possession. In a side that is constantly defending, like ours, they can be a liability. This is the same reason why the current Arsenal team when they have an off day - when they don't control possession - look chaotic in defence and ship so many goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 IMO Vermaelen is a far superior defender than Clark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 IMO Vermaelen is a far superior defender than Clark! Defensively? His heading percentage is 59% - worse than Clark's! Great offensive stats... but, like Clark, they wouldn't be noticed if we spent most of the game under siege in our own penalty box http://www.whoscored.com/Players/10209 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaGoMarching Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 If the talk of signing Lescott is true, then it will seem like Lambert has seen enough of Clark to think he isn't good enough. Such a shame for the lad but I don't think he's ever looked the sane since the 5-0 at Newcastle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juteface Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Given his ability to intercept, move forward and pass well I think he would be better suited in a DM role. I'm pretty sure he's played this role successfully at some point before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 IMO Clark is good enough and will make it at this level as will Baker (who IMO is slightly better at defending) and for the age of him in the difficult circumstances with weak players around him having to lead the side he hasn't done to badly. I think he is better than Cahill was at the same age and certainly better than Ridgewell, who have both proved themselves to be established Premiership players. If Cahill had played in a defence of Lowton, Herd, Clark/Cahill, Lichaj then I think he would have been found out sooner. Clark just needs more time playing with Vlaar and slowly more games with Baker as I think Clark/Baker partnership will be very good in 2 years time if they are brought through properly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Defensively? His heading percentage is 59% - worse than Clark's! Great offensive stats... but, like Clark, they wouldn't be noticed if we spent most of the game under siege in our own penalty box http://www.whoscored.com/Players/10209 You've convinced me Clark is world class - no wonder he's at a top four club! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 If the talk of signing Lescott is true, then it will seem like Lambert has seen enough of Clark to think he isn't good enough. Such a shame for the lad but I don't think he's ever looked the sane since the 5-0 at Newcastle. Or Vlaar is a long way from returning to the first team. - For whatever reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboyangel Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 If the talk of signing Lescott is true, then it will seem like Lambert has seen enough of Clark to think he isn't good enough. Such a shame for the lad but I don't think he's ever looked the sane since the 5-0 at Newcastle. Or Vlaar is a long way from returning to the first team. - For whatever reason Or how about just simply, PL wants another experienced CB to play alongside our existing CBs. Dunne is still injured, out of contract in the summer and linked with an imminent move to the MLS - which would only leave us with 3 first team Centre Backs, two of which are youngish academy products. I'd welcome Lescott at the club, solid defender who would assist with the development of Baker and Clark. Also think he'd be great alongside Vlaar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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