Ponky Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 He played better as a CM IMO I agree with this. I think he has the attributes of a decent defensive midfielder. He has a bit of size to him but is not big enough for a premier league CB in a team like ours. His overall ball skills are pretty good and he has the ability to win headers and tackles in the middle of the ground. When Vlaar comes back I'd like to see him partner Baker with Clark sitting behind the 3 central midfielders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 He's poor in midfield, a liability at CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Vlaar & Clark 9 points in 11 matches. Clark & Other 9 points in 8 matches. Clark isn't a bad CB. He's just not a defensive CB, he's an offensive CB, like Vermaelen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanvilla_1994 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 He's not very good at defending, that makes him a bad CB in my books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 He's not very good at defending, that makes him a bad CB in my books. I disagree. I would say Bennett on present evidence is not very good at defending. Clark is a good defender. He's not to blame for all our goals, and has about five clean sheets already this season. There is also place for defenders who have different styles. A defence that doesn't have a Ciaren Clark would be like Stoke's. Lacking in passing and skill on the ball, kicking it long all the time. You don't want to be relying on the Vermaelen types in a relegation battle, and he needs help alongside him, but he's not a 'bad' defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 WTF is an offensive centre back and why compare him to Vermaelen who has been awful this season. I want my defenders to defend not be playmakers and at the moment Clark isnt defending at all. As said before he made James Hanson(no offence to the guy he is far from it) look like a world class striker its really impossible to defend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I disagree. I would say Bennett on present evidence is not very good at defending. Clark is a good defender. He's not to blame for all our goals, and has about five clean sheets already this season. There is also place for defenders who have different styles. A defence that doesn't have a Ciaren Clark would be like Stoke's. Lacking in passing and skill on the ball, kicking it long all the time. You don't want to be relying on the Vermaelen types in a relegation battle, and he needs help alongside him, but he's not a 'bad' defender. To be honest if we had a defence like stokes - I wouldn't be shitting myself about southampton at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I disagree. I would say Bennett on present evidence is not very good at defending. Clark is a good defender. He's not to blame for all our goals, and has about five clean sheets already this season. There is also place for defenders who have different styles. A defence that doesn't have a Ciaren Clark would be like Stoke's. Lacking in passing and skill on the ball, kicking it long all the time. You don't want to be relying on the Vermaelen types in a relegation battle, and he needs help alongside him, but he's not a 'bad' defender. this would be the same stoke that had the best defence in Europe until about 2 or 3 weeks ago. Yeah would rather a defence of attacking defenders like Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) WTF is an offensive centre back and why compare him to Vermaelen who has been awful this season. I want my defenders to defend not be playmakers Not all defenders are equally talented at passing and controlling the ball. They may hold down their place because they are great at heading, have strong positional sense, great leaders and organisers. This is the traditional defender. Imagine a spectrum: traditional defender with no playmaking skill but very strong defensive skill > balanced defender with playmaking skill and strong defensive skill > playmaking defender with strong playmaking skill but slightly weaker defensive skill Robert Huth > Vincent Kompany > Thomas Vermaelen List of PL defenders I believe have decent playmaking skill: Rio Ferdinand, Thomas Vermaelen, David Lulz, Gary Cahill, Vincent Kompany, Fabricio Coloccini, Ciaren Clark. Of these, Ferdinand, Kompany and Coloccini (?) are balanced players who are also equally good defenders. Clark, Lulz, Cahill, Vermaelen are good defenders but they don't hold down their place because of their strong defensive skill. Non-PL list: Sergio Ramos, Daniel De Rossi, Franz Beckenbauer. Ideally, you partner one strong defensive CB with one good playmaking CB (who is as strong defensively as you can get). Hence the Vidic - Ferdinand partnership at Man Utd. The best, rarest and most expensive defenders are the "balanced" kind. That is why Arsenal bought Vermaelen. There are so few of them they are all at the biggest clubs, and they couldn't afford them, so had to compromise a bit on defending skill to get the level of passing they wanted from their CBs. Having CBs with bad passing can be a liability sometimes - like Chelsea game against Swansea. Ivanovic is a traditional defender. and at the moment Clark isnt defending at all. As said before he made James Hanson(no offence to the guy he is far from it) look like a world class striker its really impossible to defend the wheels have come off over last few games. that's why experience is needed. doesn't make him a bad defender. doing a decent job for a 24 year old, to the best of his abilities. Edited January 12, 2013 by Con Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villa87 Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 doing a decent job for a 24 year old, to the best of his abilities. Which is not up to scratch. As a defender he is left wanting on two key aspects of his game, positioning and strength. He does not attack the ball as a centre half should, either in the air or on the deck. It is not just him, but positionally he is all over the place and often loses his man from a cross. I would like to see him alongside a proven centre half, someone Laursenesque, in order to see if these flaws to his game improve. However, currently, he is of equal blame with the rest of the defence for how piss poor they are. The fact that he is captain is a joke in itself, although i appreciate that with the inexperience in our team there is little alternative. Placing him in the middle of the park alongside Westwood once Vlaar is back might be an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) Vermaelen (Ajax and Arsenal) > Clark (Aston Villa reserves & Aston Villa whipping boys) Some of the highlights from Ciaran "The Wall" Clark's performances this season: Soton 4 Villa 1 Man City 5 Villa 0 Chelsea 8 Villa 0 Villa 0 Spurs 4 Bradford 3 Villa 1 Clark is tosh! Edited January 12, 2013 by Brumstopdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis_B Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 The fact thedefence are en masse 'inexperienced' at this level, including Vlaar and the fact there is no midfield to support them makes the criticism of CC unfair in my view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Vermaelen (Ajax and Arsenal) > Clark (Aston Villa reserves & Aston Villa whipping boys) Some of the highlights from Ciaran "The Wall" Clark's performances this season: Soton 4 Villa 1 Man City 5 Villa 0 Chelsea 8 Villa 0 Villa 0 Spurs 4 Bradford 3 Villa 1 Clark is tosh! In other games he has been crucial to us getting the points by contributing to a clean sheet. Aston Villa 2 Swansea 0 (with Vlaar) Sunderland 0 Aston Villa 1 (with Vlaar) Aston Villa 0 Arsenal 0 (Vlaar to 51 mins) Aston Villa 1 Reading 0 (without Vlaar) Aston Villa 0 Stoke 0 (without Vlaar) Also long shots/deflections in these games prevented a clean sheet - Newcastle 1 Aston Villa 1 (with Vlaar) Liverpool 1 Aston Villa 3 (without Vlaar) This record shows inconsistency. It doesn't show he is a bad defender. You are cherry picking the worst results during which the goals conceded may not have had anything to do with Clark's defending. Against Chelsea, Spurs and Wigan a lot of the goals came down our left side with Bennett at LB. Clark cannot do Bennett's defending for him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Which is not up to scratch. As a defender he is left wanting on two key aspects of his game, positioning and strength. He does not attack the ball as a centre half should, either in the air or on the deck. It is not just him, but positionally he is all over the place and often loses his man from a cross. I don't think he is weak on strength. How do you justify that claim? Clark is sometimes caught out of position but other times he makes great interceptions. When he doesn't get to the ball he is out of position. No team has a 100% clean sheet record. When a goal is scored, the CBs are always out of position. Vincent Kompany has been caught out of position about 19 times this season. Positioning is something Clark will improve on but I would say his positioning is already generally 'good'. Clark wins about 60% aerial battles compared to 70% which is typical of our defensive CBs, Vlaar and Baker. Clark's aerial % is about the same as Vermaelen this season 59%. You'd expect this weakness from a playmaking CB, nobody can deny he should be partnered with a traditional CB. You say he is weak on the "deck" - what do you mean? Please explain. He has good passing stats, scores goals. Makes a lot of interceptions, clearances and blocked shots. I think you are wrong on this one. I would like to see him alongside a proven centre half, someone Laursenesque, in order to see if these flaws to his game improve. However, currently, he is of equal blame with the rest of the defence for how piss poor they are. The fact that he is captain is a joke in itself, although i appreciate that with the inexperience in our team there is little alternative. Placing him in the middle of the park alongside Westwood once Vlaar is back might be an option. He's a good playmaking CB. He needs to be partnered with a strong traditional CB. Baker is a traditional CB and has played very well in many games but he's also made a few mistakes recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) He's not good at much other than being relatively comfortable on the ball for a centre half (although not good enough on it for a midfielder). Playmaking CB is just an odd thing to want, you want one that is good at, you know, defending, but is also good enough on the ball to find a shirt that is 5 yards in front of him! Edited January 12, 2013 by Dr_Pangloss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 we dont need a **** fictional position. we want a defender to defend not a "playmaking centre half", never thought Id see Clark compared to Sergio Ramos or Beckenbauer like above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villa87 Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I don't think he is weak on strength. How do you justify that claim? Clark is sometimes caught out of position but other times he makes great interceptions. When he doesn't get to the ball he is out of position. No team has a 100% clean sheet record. When a goal is scored, the CBs are always out of position. Vincent Kompany has been caught out of position about 19 times this season. Positioning is something Clark will improve on but I would say his positioning is already generally 'good'. Clark wins about 60% aerial battles compared to 70% which is typical of our defensive CBs, Vlaar and Baker. Clark's aerial % is about the same as Vermaelen this season 59%. You'd expect this weakness from a playmaking CB, nobody can deny he should be partnered with a traditional CB. You say he is weak on the "deck" - what do you mean? Please explain. He has good passing stats, scores goals. Makes a lot of interceptions, clearances and blocked shots. I think you are wrong on this one. He's a good playmaking CB. He needs to be partnered with a strong traditional CB. Baker is a traditional CB and has played very well in many games but he's also made a few mistakes recently. Firstly, I justify my claim that Clark is weak through watching him play. Through you stating that he wins 60% of aerial battles has emphasised my point! He is not commanding enough. I really do not get what you are trying to say about him being a 'play-making' centre half. I would much rather a defender who can defend first and foremost. On the deck - I am not denying that he is capable, or at least more capable on the ball than other defenders, but you rarely see him make crunching tackles - such as Baker. All defenders can be caught out of position, no player is infallible. However, Clark is caught out of position on a number of occasions. Play often bypasses him because of his poor aerial ability and because I do not think he is commanding enough to consistently go in and win the first ball. Ultimately, I think Clark has failed to quite live up to the promise made about him. He is an average defender, who might be better than average alongside another more commanding centre half. But it cannot be denied that Clark, along with the rest of the defence, is strongly accountable for our recent form. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I think I would have more faith in Liam Ridgwell to be honest. I ve never seen what some saw in him, so I am not sure if that makes me a good judge, or they were wrong. Its a shame anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 He's not good at much other than being relatively comfortable on the ball for a centre half (although not good enough on it for a midfielder). Playmaking CB is just an odd thing to want, you want one that is good at, you know, defending, but is also good enough on the ball to find a shirt that is 5 yards in front of him! If you put two Ivanovic's at CB you'll get dodgy passes that are intercepted by the opposition strikers every other game. There is a balance to be struck between skill and ruggedness at CB. That is why the ideal IMO is top class traditional defender paired with a top class playmaking CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) If you put two Ivanovic's at CB you'll get dodgy passes that are intercepted by the opposition strikers every other game. There is a balance to be struck between skill and ruggedness at CB. That is why the ideal IMO is top class traditional defender paired with a top class playmaking CB. No you need both of them to be able to defend and to be decent on the ball. You don't need a 'playmaking' CB and I'm convinced you've just made that position up off the top of your head lol. You don't need a centre half to be able to play defence splitting or 60 yard cross field passes, they just need to be able to give the ball to the midfield. Edited January 12, 2013 by Dr_Pangloss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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