blandy Posted November 2, 2012 Moderator Share Posted November 2, 2012 You don't think it's true that those are the alternatives, or that more MP's are starting to realise those are the alternatives? I don't think it's true that we have "two choices regarding the EU: full integration to a federal superstate through the stated EU aim of "ever closer union", or political independence as the United Kingdom..." which is what you wrote. I don't think it's true that those are the ONLY alternatives. I don't think it's true that "more MPs are starting to "realise" that. I think there has always been a significant amount of MPs who want out, and feel that getting out is almost top priority - it's pretty much the raison d'etre of UKIP, and a number of tories are of the same viewpoint (in terms of priority). You may think it's obsessive to point out as often as possible that this is the reality facing us but when intelligent people clearly don't recognise it then it can't be repeated often enough, imo. I don't think that most people see it as anything like the same level of overriding importance as those MPs and UKIP would have us believe. That's where the obsession is - not in the viewpoint, but in the importance placed on the issue. This is the fundamental point that people are clearly not getting, the very principle of ever closer union intends to eventually preclude a 'pick and mix' approach. For example EU wide harmonisation of VAT is openly stated as being on the Brussels agenda. You seem to think the EU has limited ambitions where in reality the aim is to complete subsume individual national sovereignty. After Lisbon comes into force qualified majority voting comes into force. That means the UK can no longer veto legislation made outside this country by people we don't elect from being imposed here. It destroys the very foundation of our democracy and independence by ensuring we cannot remove those who make our laws if we so chose. There's some truth in that - in that parts of the EU beaurocracy are looking at and would want more control, to move towards a homogenous thing. But Equally the 27 countreis and their Gov'ts will be the ones who decide that, not the Commission. There's no apettite for that direction, and the elected politicians know it. Youguv have had those who would vote to leave the EU fairly steady at about 48% for a while, those in favour of remaining runs at about 32%. That doesn't look like like a wide majority against the independence viewpoint to me.. Fair enough. I think a lot of that depends on the question though. I wonder whether if asked "is it an urgent priority for Britain to leave the EU? the result would look the same. It's the one dimensional focus of the "get out" UKIP and tories that I find amusing, almost. It leads to them trying to shape the argument along the lines you have written - that we're heading inexorably for the rocks of a complete United States of Europe governed by some faceless non-elected folk in Brussels or STrasbourg, and we have to abandon ship immediately. Frankly I just don't see it like that. I'm not really bothered whether we're in or out. Life will go on, the continent will still be there. They'll carry on with 26 instead of 27 members, most if not all of whom aren't burdened with a rump of politicians driving the agenda in their country towards a never ending "get out" call. Most have simply accepted the EU exists, they're happily part of it, for all it's many flaws, and so they'll work within it to make things better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Shit reporting of the highest order. It isn't Hague's personal property, it's owned by the Foreign Office. Was it worth the repair? Hell no - but to try and pass this off and Tory extravegance is nonsense. I'm sure Labour's time in office is littered with similar bizarre spending decisions. :-) - you make me smile. I remember the indignation that the Tory party and it's supporters claimed when labour were in power (and the irony of the "ahhh but Labour" comment was noted :-) ) . The reality is that the department run by Hague has spent a lot of tax payers money on basically re-stuffing a snake. Now you can argue that it's a national "treasure" or similar but really at a time when many people are losing their jobs from Gvmt, to see 10000 quid being spent on something like that will always make the headlines. It certainly makes people question the hypocrisy of those in office with claims of belt tightening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I think there's something deliciously quaint and loveable about BoJo. He seems to wear his heart on his sleeve, and 'seems' largely free from malicious intent. It could well all be a fantastic PR/marketing job, the loveable buffoon persona, but if it is, it's a fantastically good job. I believe he may well be a wolf in sheep's clothing, but who knows. I'd bet he has Dave worried Sorry Jon but you are kidding aren't you. The bloke has a very long list of indiscretions and if you take away the "buffoon" facade that he likes to portray you are left with a very nasty bloke with some views that belong in a world that should not be the UK in 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 'BoJo' is a bumbling idiot, however the fact that he's quirky in an age of highly programmed and robotic politicians makes him appealing to a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 :-) - you make me smile. I remember the indignation that the Tory party and it's supporters claimed when labour were in power (and the irony of the "ahhh but Labour" comment was noted :-) ) . The reality is that the department run by Hague has spent a lot of tax payers money on basically re-stuffing a snake. Now you can argue that it's a national "treasure" or similar but really at a time when many people are losing their jobs from Gvmt, to see 10000 quid being spent on something like that will always make the headlines. It certainly makes people question the hypocrisy of those in office with claims of belt tightening And as Risso so deftly pointed out, had they not re-stuffed the snake (arf arf) Hague would have been accused of neglecting a national treasure. I'm sure there is never a good time politically to spend £10k on taxidermy. Its interesting that no opposition politician has come out against such an action because apart from in your world, there is no political capital to be made here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 'BoJo' is a bumbling idiot, however the fact that he's quirky in an age of highly programmed and robotic politicians makes him appealing to a lot of people. I can assure you he is far from a bumbling idiot. He has that persona because as you rightly point out, it makes him very very appealing to the public. How much substance lives below the style? Ask the people of London, they have elected him twice..... he's doing something rignt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 'BoJo' is a bumbling idiot, however the fact that he's quirky in an age of highly programmed and robotic politicians makes him appealing to a lot of people. Indeed Dr P. What I was driving at, really. He does have a good level of public acceptance/popularity, especially for a politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I'm sure there is never a good time politically to spend £10k on taxidermy. Oh, I don't know. If I were to fundraise for the cost of having Cameron and Osborne stuffed, I reckon an afternoon should do it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 He he. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 And as Risso so deftly pointed out, had they not re-stuffed the snake (arf arf) Hague would have been accused of neglecting a national treasure. I'm sure there is never a good time politically to spend £10k on taxidermy. Its interesting that no opposition politician has come out against such an action because apart from in your world, there is no political capital to be made here. Disagree. I suspect your "defense" of this action is borne more out of your desire not to see any anti-Tory news item than the real issue here. As many have pointed out for a party led by a marketing man (and crap at it) the current agenda seems to be a daily marketing own goal. This is another. You see the snake is not the issue at all, as well you know. The issue is the constant bleating from Cameron, Osborne, Hague et al about "being in this together" and trying to justify massive cutbacks often imposed because of flawed arguments. When you then see that a department run by Hague spending a sizable amount of money on stuffing this snake, the public will rightly question the messages that this Gvmt are giving out and how serious they are. For you 10K may not be a lot of money, but for many it is, and if you as a single mum or a cancer sufferer for example had seen you benefits cut and then see the people imposing those cuts happily spending 10K on frivolous items like this, you would rightly be angry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Disagree. I suspect your "defense" of this action is borne more out of your desire not to see any anti-Tory news item than the real issue here. As many have pointed out for a party led by a marketing man (and crap at it) the current agenda seems to be a daily marketing own goal. This is another. You see the snake is not the issue at all, as well you know. The issue is the constant bleating from Cameron, Osborne, Hague et al about "being in this together" and trying to justify massive cutbacks often imposed because of flawed arguments. When you then see that a department run by Hague spending a sizable amount of money on stuffing this snake, the public will rightly question the messages that this Gvmt are giving out and how serious they are. For you 10K may not be a lot of money, but for many it is, and if you as a single mum or a cancer sufferer for example had seen you benefits cut and then see the people imposing those cuts happily spending 10K on frivolous items like this, you would rightly be angry. 10k is a lot of money - particuarly now the bloke that stuffed the last fox I collared with the hounds has heard this story. He is charging me £15k for the badger I dropped into him this morning. Aaaanyway. The point I was trying to make was that the snake would have been stuffed regardless of the colour of government in the department. I doubt Mr Hague was even aware the snake had been booked in for a refil. I can see the political impact of it, and its not great, but like I said, the fact Red Ed, Mr Balls or any member of the Opposition front bench haven't really gone into one over it, suggests there is little to be gained over the story. Particularly on a day one of their own big beasts is going to get chucked out of Parliament for 12 months. I can see how for many people this is a pretty galling story, over a years wages for many on filling a snake with cotton wool or whatever they use. Its a shame for Labour about Dennis because they are actually so much better at Opposition politics than the Tories. Regardless of what they say and whether you believe in or agree with it. Hague and his snake would on any other day be a licence to hammer the government and ruthlessly take the piss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 The person responsible needs to watch out. The last time Hague asked an aide to sort out his snake it ended up with a resignation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 The person responsible needs to watch out. The last time Hague asked an aide to sort out his snake it ended up with a resignation. the irony last time, they were only sharing a pillow to save tax payers money apparently if only they'd saved that pillow they could have used the stuffing this time around and saved even more money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 2, 2012 Moderator Share Posted November 2, 2012 snicker, snicker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Ask the people of London, they have elected him twice..... he's doing something rignt. He got in with 44% of a 38% turnout. He's doing something right for around 17% of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Most votes of the people who turned up? That's democracy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Most votes of the people who turned up? That's democracy to me. Tell that to Boris (union strike ballots). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Sorry Jon but you are kidding aren't you. The bloke has a very long list of indiscretions and if you take away the "buffoon" facade that he likes to portray you are left with a very nasty bloke with some views that belong in a world that should not be the UK in 2012 Like this bloke you mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 2, 2012 Author Moderator Share Posted November 2, 2012 Most votes of the people who turned up? That's democracy to me. Its not democracy to me. Compulsory voting with mandatory "none of the above" on the ballot paper is democracy for me. I'd go as far as making polling day a national holiday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Boris won't thank former employer Max Hastings for this reference. It's quite funny though. Most politicians are ambitious and ruthless, but Boris is a gold medal egomaniac. I would not trust him with my wife nor — from painful experience — with my wallet. It is unnecessary to take any moral view about his almost crazed infidelities, but it is hard to believe that any man so conspicuously incapable of controlling his own libido is fit to be trusted with controlling the country. Initially It appeared in the Mail and Grauniad, others picked it up later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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