Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #3 - GE Week One

[Chindie]

I'm not sure what that rants in aid of CED since what problems people have with the education reform, and vice versa, don't appear to be on party lines at all, and rather that they think the reforms proposed are not good, like myself and Trent, or other wise.

I'm right with you on petty party politics, it pisses me off, but it's unwarranted here.

[leviramsey]

They should do what they do / did in Birghton, lottery entry into state schools, then the peer effect can help everyone

Or hurt everyone, too... the acting white phenomenon of ostracism of students who show an interest in doing well in school is generally true of any underprivileged subculture (Tim Harford specifically includes the British working class as such a subculture where the phenomenon exists) does exist (as studies asking pupils who their friends are demonstrate). The most plausible reason for this is that the "normal" kids ask themselves why they should bother investing in friendship with someone who will be going off to university and quite probably never return to the ghetto.

[leviramsey]

But more important than what money is spent, parents are the most important things to a childrens development. Too many people, many with too much money, expect someone to educate their children, to look after their children, to parent their children. Ultimately some people seem to think its someone else’s responsibility to bring up their offspring. This has nothing to do with money. I ve seen parents with little money make huge personal sacrifices for their children and the children (and the parents) have reaped the benefit. What frustrates me when I see children fail.

Indeed, the better results observed at private and charter schools may be largely because having parents who care enough to decide not to send their kids to the default option of state schools may well be correlated to parents who care enough about their kids to read to them or otherwise intellectually stimulate them at an early age and take an interest in their continued intellectual development.

[PauloBarnesi]

In some cases its hard to argue that politicians/experts/teachers, etc have done much better. One would hope that a series of determined parents would do a better job, than a series of demotivated team of politicians/governors/experts/teachers. In virtually all cases its not like the parents will actually be doing the educating, they will be hiring professionals to do that.

Ok so how do you see that working exactly?

Take a good school in a good catchment area. The parents will largely be supportive, they will push their kids, they will support the school in terms of discipline and their kids will generally want to learn. In such a school there are unlikely to be demotivated staff yet it is these kids parents who are probably most likely able to make a significant contribution to the running of a school. At present they can do so by the way as school governors.

Then take a city centre school with a poor catchment area, unsupportive kids, behaviour issues in school and a lack of support from parents out of school. These are the schools with de-motivated staff, so tell me do you think the parents of these kids are going to be the ones willing and able to run a school?

Edit - Do you think parents are informed enough to recruit teachers? Having spent 10 years recruiting teachers I don't.

Do I think parents are informed enough to recruit teachers? I suspect if a group of parents got together to form a board of governors, and they were determined enough to go through all the hoops to ‘set’ up a school, I would think they would be informed enough to appoint a staff. Of course not every parent could do it. But lets put it this way, if I had to I would make damn sure I knew as much as I could.

Now to the questions of failing inner city schools and how to solve these problems; unfortunately in the case of some parents and children I can’t see any solution. This is a bigger issue than schools. Its a problem of society; yes education can help to improve things, but its more complicated than that. I would say that of course some parents within these areas wish they could get out of this vicious cycle. But what can they hope for; a scholarship at private school? the rare possibility of a grammar school. Its these people who I feel for. Grammar schools used to offer hope.

As a small aside; I am also supportive of sport in schools. The policy of selling off playing fields (a Tory initative, but continued into the modern era) is shocking.

[leviramsey]

showing that results for half the pupils remained the same and for a third of pupils they went down, which means they only went up for a sixth of pupils.

as per above there seemed to be regional variations not to mention different figures being quoted as on the radio last night the figure was 33 % of schools had showed significant improvement ... I've not seen why those regional variations have occurred but the trick would be to ensure that the "working" model is followed I guess .. as I say NY the results have been largely positive ..why they appear to have succeeded when other areas have failed I really have no idea

Whenever you introduce choice into things, "wrong" choices will be made.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

It was on the idea that Labour supporters will come out and hate it and Tories will come out and love it.

Why is that? Why can't they sit back and see it for what it's worth and make a fair judgement?

Anyway, In regards to education, I don't think it'll be the parents that run the schools. As Richard said a number of the best schools in the UK were started under a similar system. My view is the parents will be the board along with some educational folks they trust (although this for me is the issue, will they take this opportunity to see a rise in faith schools?) and will employ people who have the skills to educate their children.

I don't think it's simply a case of 'we know best' but more 'my child is spending 10 hours a week in classes he doesn't need or have an interest in' and by that i mean things like Religion or TD (or D&T over in england).

Education, in my opinion, is about readying children and young adults for the ''real world''. Equip them with the knowledge necassary to do this and you've done your job well.

Personally, I would've much preferred learning about the tax system than sit and hear stories about jesus etc. I see no reason why a collective of parents should have the power to set up schools, focus on the big three English, Maths and Science but have more time spent teaching kids about life and how to suceed in our system. This is what education should do, and if people decide to go on to become Doctors etc then they can specialise in subjects in the later years of secondary school.

I think it can work, but the biggest danger is a rise in faith schools IMO.

[leviramsey]

Having the combination of a zero-marginal-rate tax bracket and a basic tax credit creates the poverty trap.

End one of them and you make the effective marginal tax rates much smoother

What do you mean by a 'basic tax credit'?

A broadly-available refundable tax credit that results in many of low or no income paying an effectively negative rate of tax... the US Earned Income Tax Credit (though the EITC is more because Social Security and Medicare taxes apply from the first dollar of earned income and thus account for a rather large portion of the payroll deductions for lower-income workers) is an example, and I'd suspect that the UK tax credits discussed fall into that category.

[TrentVilla]

Indeed it is an experiment, but one where if I understand correctly parents can work together to set up a school. I would hope that parents would actually care about their offspring enough to make the right decisions. I don’t expect parents to do the teaching, but to appoint people to do everything that exists within a school. As often schools have a board of governors who do important things like appoint heads, this strikes me as nothing particularly radical.

Your understanding is correct and in an ideal world I would agree that "I would hope that parents" would make the right decisions however my personal experience and the 2nd had experience I've had via my Deputy Head misses who loves nothing more than to tell me about parents at her school makes me realise not all parents are like you.

Did you by any chance see the program last night on children with addictions? If you did you might see where I'm coming from. In my experience Head Teachers are appointed by LA's (formerly LEA's) and in some cases ratified by Governors, as you rightly say LA's struggle to get this right so I would be very concerned about parents making these decisions without any real education knowledge.

When it comes down to it; you have good teachers, you have bad teachers. You have bad parents, you have good parents. But the way you worded your original argument, it struck me as being a dismissal of parents.

No not at all, parents have a crucial role in education. The schools that fail and the pupils that fail often do so in part due to the lack of support from parents. Parents have a huge role to play in education but I personally feel that role is in supporting their kids and the schools rather than running them.

In the end my children’s education will be dominated not by schools, but by my wife and myself. We will have made the key decisions, the sacrifices, etc. They may be wrong, but I would hope they are with my childrens best interests at heart. I am afraid that I don’t think that others who may be involved will always be the same.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I can though assure you there are many parents out there who the same could be said for, some of the stories I hear on a daily basis are mind blowing.

I'm very much in favour of the Grammar school option, I'm not advocating total equality of education by placing limitations on the most able children I never will.

I will again say that I hope that parents have the best wishes of their offspring at heart. If they feel that setting up schools is the best option, good luck to them.

And what happens when the parents who are the driving force behind it see their children graduate from the school? Are they going to remain interested in that school or are they going to walk away and hope someone takes over from them?

I am at a loss what is wrong with the private sector in terms of education. If you look at those ghastly tables, you will see the private sector and selective schools dominate the tables. Yes you get dreadful ‘private’ schools, but at the same time really good ones; often ex-grammar schools.

Nothing. I'm not against private schools, I'm against state funded private schools.

Yes there are some excellent private schools as well as some bad ones I don't disagree and part of that comes down to who is running those schools so not really all that different to state schools are they?

I would also point out again that the reasons 'some' of these schools are so successful isn't the education or the principles of the education are different. It is that the parents of the children are smarter (which is why they can afford it) they support and push their kids more and because of the extra funding that fee's bring compared to state funding the class sizes are smaller, much smaller. Nothing improves education more than smaller class sizes and more one to one learning, the last I checked we on average have the largest class sizes in Western Europe.

I am in total agreement about grammar schools. Sadly Labour nor the Tories will bring them back. Its strange that many of my labour supporting friends believe in them. Its strange that they will send their children to them as well where they exist.

No sadly you are right even though I suspect most of them were lucky enough to go to them and in private probably agree with them but it isn't a vote winner I guess.

I'm very much against Labours stance on Grammar schools, if the Tories policies had said "we are going to build 25 new Grammar schools" I would fully support this policy.

This isn't about party politics for me, its about what I honestly believe is best. I may or may not be right but the colour of the party putting forward the policy on this subject doesn't matter.

As for your various rants, I really do have sympathy and agree with you. Comprehensive admission policies are really wrong.

[leviramsey]

as per above there seemed to be regional variations not to mention different figures being quoted as on the radio last night the figure was 33 % of schools had showed significant improvement ... I've not seen why those regional variations have occurred but the trick would be to ensure that the "working" model is followed I guess .. as I say NY the results have been largely positive ..why they appear to have succeeded when other areas have failed I really have no idea

What proportion of this US system is run on a 'for profit' basis?

Basically none.

[leviramsey]

All this "power to the people" is a bit Socialist isn't it?

No, shrinking the state is core conservative ideology.

Not really... it's a liberal ideology, though in recent decades conservatives have discovered liberalism's critique on state power (at least in areas where it suits them).

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

CED - Someone a few weeks back said that the "gvmt" should be split into electable bodies. so you would have a body for

- Health

- Defence

- Justice

- Educations

etc etc. Then for each of these you elect specific people who are responsible for national decisions

Obviously a flawed argument in many ways but I can see what they are getting at

I was thinking of this but the big problem is again the Parties will more than likely have petty squabbles rather than focus on the issues in hand.

However if you had this system. Make candidates for each of the bodies come up with seperate manifestos dealing with their specific body and send them out to the electorate, then we could see an improvement on people judging on policies rather than outdated beliefs.

[TrentVilla]

Do I think parents are informed enough to recruit teachers? I suspect if a group of parents got together to form a board of governors, and they were determined enough to go through all the hoops to ‘set’ up a school, I would think they would be informed enough to appoint a staff. Of course not every parent could do it. But lets put it this way, if I had to I would make damn sure I knew as much as I could.

I don't for one minute doubt you would but plenty wouldn't or couldn't and how exactly do the Tories plan on deciding who is and who isn't capable? More over is whatever process they come up with for doing this going to reduce public spending? I doubt it, it will likely just reduce the actual money going to educate the kids.

I would say that of course some parents within these areas wish they could get out of this vicious cycle. But what can they hope for; a scholarship at private school? the rare possibility of a grammar school. Its these people who I feel for. Grammar schools used to offer hope.

I couldn't agree with you more I really couldn't and that is why I think the move away from an education system that included Grammar schools is criminal.

As a small aside; I am also supportive of sport in schools. The policy of selling off playing fields (a Tory initative, but continued into the modern era) is shocking.

Its worse than shocking, its immoral.

[tonyh29]

- Health

- Defence

- Justice

- Educations

interesting idea but I guess we'd still have an over all PM as well ? so if for example 2 were given to Labour and 2 to the Tories and say Cameron happened to still be the overall PM ..would the funding to the 2 labour ones be on a parr with the 2 Tory ones etc etc

My point is though that you are suggesting that only one sides views on this policy are shaped by their political starting point I'm simply pointing out that the same accusation can be levelled at both sides. I think that point was fairly clear.

no that's a fair enough point ,my comments aren't really aimed in your direction as you are also offering view points and counter arguments ..My gripes are more aimed at people that just post " it will be worse under the Tories" and then leave the thread ..sure have an opinion but why not share how you came to the conclusion with people .. We can speculate on What "could" have happened had the Tories been in charge of the economy in 2007 ..but we can't just dismiss it as "it would have been worse"

Brown digs aside I do look at all sides of the debate and try to counter points raised it's just that the people reading my posts just see "tory Tory Tory" and ignore what I type :-)

[PauloBarnesi]

Nothing. I'm not against private schools, I'm against state funded private schools.

Effectively grammar schools were private schools. The local education authorities funded these independent schools. When Labour got rid of them, the governors took them private. Grammar schools were more than often set up by individuals benefactors, or institutions; hence the dominance of the liveried companies; Merchant Tailors, Haberdashers, St Pauls (Mercers) etc, etc

Of course in Northern Ireland, Sinn Fein want to get rid of them, which isn’t going down with my family over there...

[blandy]

There are over 250,000 civil servants working in Whitehall, there has to be a way of saving money there. Anyone any ideas?

No there aren't. That's completely untrue.

ONS pdf

Full-time civil servants had median earnings excluding overtime or oneoff bonuses of £22,850 in 2009, according to the annual Civil Service

Statistics, published today by the Office for National Statistics. This figure appears lower than the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings estimate for their counterparts in the private sector and also the wider public sector – the median gross earnings of full-time employees in the private sector were £24,970 and in the public sector as a whole £27,686 – but it should be noted that these figures include overtime and bonuses. The majority of civil servants – some 63 per cent – earn less than £25,000 a year.

At 31 March 2009, Civil Service employment was 524,420 (489,930 on a full-time equivalent basis), according to the Annual Civil Service Employment Survey (ACSES).

The last 20 years have seen a reduction in the proportion of civil

servants located in London and the South East. At 31 March 2009, 16

per cent of UK-based civil servants worked in London. Nearly threequarters (74 per cent) of civil servants worked outside London and the South East, with 9.7 per cent based in Scotland and 6.9 per cent in

Wales.

16 percent of 524, 420 is 31, 462 - still a heck of a lot, but not much more than a 10th of what you said.

They are also on pretty average wages, most of them.

The civil service makes up less than 1% of the population.

I don't think that cutting the wages or jobs of a fairly lowly paid bunch of people is necessarily going to make things significantly better for anyone.

Cutting ID card schemes, Trident, various new programmes may be vastly more effective and have much less of a negative effect. I don't believe any party that says "cut away at the civil service" is the solution to problems, and I like them to get their figures right. Both the tories and labour have recently been in the news for using incorrect figures. It doesn't help anyone.

[tonyh29]

Cutting ID card schemes, Trident, various new programmes may be vastly more effective and have much less of a negative effect.

I'm curious on this cutting trident bit (and others) ... when you place an order for something don't you sign a contract and put down a down payment ... Ok it will save us having to pay the remainder of the bill I guess but it doesn't suddenly free up £100bn that can be spent elsewhere , it's just saying Ok we won't increase our debt further by spend £100bn .. however we have just written off £xxBn that we've already paid

[TrentVilla]

Nothing. I'm not against private schools, I'm against state funded private schools.

Effectively grammar schools were private schools. The local education authorities funded these independent schools. When Labour got rid of them, the governors took them private. Grammar schools were more than often set up by individuals benefactors, or institutions; hence the dominance of the liveried companies; Merchant Tailors, Haberdashers, St Pauls (Mercers) etc, etc

Of course in Northern Ireland, Sinn Fein want to get rid of them, which isn’t going down with my family over there...

Historically yes they were although when many were formed they were the only schools mine was set up by a Bishop but that was about 500 years ago.

Yes some governors took them private but not all, in Birmingham there are still state funded Grammar schools but they are grant maintained.

[blandy]

Indeed tony. it's true we don't know the detail of the contract for trident It may be that there are penalties, there may be get out clauses and so on.

But it's surely the case that follow on costs - the cost of supporting the subs over the next 40 years, the cost of leasing the warheads, maintenance, and so on would be saved. I am sure this saving would be very considerable. I know both main parties have absolutely ruled out cancellation, but neither has said why.

The ID card scheme I think the tories and liberals have both said they'd get rid of and quite right too.

[TrentVilla]

Indeed tony. it's true we don't know the detail of the contract for trident It may be that there are penalties, there may be get out clauses and so on.

But it's surely the case that follow on costs - the cost of supporting the subs over the next 40 years, the cost of leasing the warheads, maintenance, and so on would be saved. I am sure this saving would be very considerable. I know both main parties have absolutely ruled out cancellation, but neither has said why.

Interesting...

The ID card scheme I think the tories and liberals have both said they'd get rid of and quite right too.

I certainly agree with them both on that.

[PauloBarnesi]

Nothing. I'm not against private schools, I'm against state funded private schools.

Effectively grammar schools were private schools. The local education authorities funded these independent schools. When Labour got rid of them, the governors took them private. Grammar schools were more than often set up by individuals benefactors, or institutions; hence the dominance of the liveried companies; Merchant Tailors, Haberdashers, St Pauls (Mercers) etc, etc

Of course in Northern Ireland, Sinn Fein want to get rid of them, which isn’t going down with my family over there...

Historically yes they were although when many were formed they were the only schools mine was set up by a Bishop but that was about 500 years ago.

Yes some governors took them private but not all, in Birmingham there are still state funded Grammar schools but they are grant maintained.

They stayed as grammar schools often because the local authorities decided to maintain funding; where they didn’t they have the choice they simply became comprehensives