Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #3 - GE Week One

[tonyh29]

I don't think Labour really need to spell that out do they as any fool can work out for themselves we'd be in a far worse position under a Tory governement.

well as we seem to have found one , why don't you explain how for us ....

(sorry Mark , no malice intended it was just to good to resist)

[Chindie]

On the schools front what Trent has said was basically exactly what I was thinking - I don't think parents, regardless of what they think, would be terribly good at running a school.

It's a policy that sounds good until you start considering that, as Trent has said, teaching is something that takes rather a big investment of time and effort to be skilled at. And parents don't have that.

That doesn't mean that the system can't be improved, I'd certainly advocate getting teachers to advise more on what they feel could be improved, maybe even have a specific... body?.. of teachers that do directly advise the top level on education. They see the effect of everything on the front line anyway.

[snowychap]

as per above there seemed to be regional variations not to mention different figures being quoted as on the radio last night the figure was 33 % of schools had showed significant improvement ... I've not seen why those regional variations have occurred but the trick would be to ensure that the "working" model is followed I guess .. as I say NY the results have been largely positive ..why they appear to have succeeded when other areas have failed I really have no idea

What proportion of this US system is run on a 'for profit' basis?

[snowychap]

It's a policy that sounds good until you start considering that, as Trent has said, teaching is something that takes rather a big investment of time and effort to be skilled at. And parents don't have that.

That doesn't mean that the system can't be improved, I'd certainly advocate getting teachers to advise more on what they feel could be improved, maybe even have a specific... body?.. of teachers that do directly advise the top level on education. They see the effect of everything on the front line anyway.

Isn't the first top down and the second bottom up, though?

I'm not sure that they are really very compatible in any arena without a quite strict demarcation where each must stop.

[tonyh29]

I don't think parents, regardless of what they think, would be terribly good at running a school.

I think in this rush to judge tory=bad that people are just not being objective enough ... Mr Smith from next door can't suddenly decide I know I think I will start up a school today ... you are focusing on this hangup that a parent is going out to start his own school ..why couldn't it be the teachers themselves who think you know what I don't think this school is delivering what it should , why don't we start our own one ... how many people work for large Corporation.com think **** it I have the experience I'm going to start my own business ..some do , some don't

Taken from the US Model it appears the idea is that a group will organize a committee to govern the school. This committee should include the director of the school district, members of the school board, teachers and parents. The committee should review and agree with the mission statement and curriculum

[PauloBarnesi]

On the schools front what Trent has said was basically exactly what I was thinking - I don't think parents, regardless of what they think, would be terribly good at running a school.

In some cases its hard to argue that politicians/experts/teachers, etc have done much better. One would hope that a series of determined parents would do a better job, than a series of demotivated team of politicians/governors/experts/teachers. In virtually all cases its not like the parents will actually be doing the educating, they will be hiring professionals to do that.

[PauloBarnesi]

If the latest polls are anything to go by then it appears people are wising up as the Tory lead is slipping.

looking at the sky tracker Labour and Lib dems haven't moved , the tories seem to have slipped and "Others " is the only one showing a gain

Labours Manifesto really just needed to say "it wasn't us guv and even if it was it would be far worse under the Tories" as that's all they've really said for the past year

I don't think Labour really need to spell that out do they as any fool can work out for themselves we'd be in a far worse position under a Tory governement.

Well we are really damned then. Labour seem incapable (if the last few years are anything to go by) of governing the country, and the Tories are incapable of doing it. Lib/Dems it must be.

[Clarry]

All this "power to the people" is a bit Socialist isn't it?

[Ads]

All this "power to the people" is a bit Socialist isn't it?

No, shrinking the state is core conservative ideology.

[TrentVilla]

of course Labour and it's supporters will dismiss it out of hand as a bad idea ..such is politics

so 2 pages later and the answer is very very much ...THIS

No more so than all the Tory supporters will think its great.

Not every on either side dismisses policies simply on the basis of which party puts them forward.

I was trying to discuss an individual policy and its merits or failings which I will do with policies from both sides I don't simply accept all policies because they are Labour and reject those that are Tory.

[TrentVilla]

And the notion that some teachers, ‘education experts’, politicians know what is best for children is equally laughable. Far too often the education of children has become an experiment for these people, and what the heck if it fails, these teachers, education experts and politicans can move on.

I never said anything about politicians so you can call it laughable all you want because its not what I said. Generally speaking though I believe that teachers, headteachers and heads of what used to be called LEA's do have a better understanding and knowledge when it comes to education than parent.

You say far too often education has become an experiment, so what exactly is this Tory policy? Is it not an experiment? I'm struggling to see your point here.

Labour’s idea that getting rid of grammar schools would somehow lead to equality is a prime example. The Guardian yesterday ran an article on how the best comprehensive’s are now more selective than grammar schools were.

I don't disagree with you and I'm very much against the idea of closing Grammar schools, despite the accusations made in this thread although I have and will likely continue to vote Labour it doesn't mean I support every policy or agree with everything they do or say.

I'm very much in favour of the Grammar school option, I'm not advocating total equality of education by placing limitations on the most able children I never will.

I don't have issues with Grammar schools, with comp's having selective policies for intake and I don't have any issues with private schools. I don't have issues with increasing the autonomy of schools to run themselves and taking their control away from those with politics rather than education as motivation.

What I'm against is back door privatisation of education which this policy on the face of it appears to be. I don't really understand how at the start of your post you can say "Far too often the education of children has become an experiment for these people" and then support this policy.

So whilst Gordon may have benefitted from the grammar system, future generations won’t. Instead they will have to go through a frankly horrendous choice at secondary schools. Look at people like Blair, Harman, Abbott et al. When faced with the choice, they all opted for selective or private schooling, something there party argued against.

As I already said I agree with Grammar schools and I don't agree with Labour on this point. I don't though think that is the same issue as the policy put forward by the Tories.

In our local area ‘celebrity’ author Toby Young is trying to set up a school. He reasons that the choices are stark; expensive private school, religious schools, an over subscribed public school, or failing public school with both appalling discipline or academic records. He argued that he wanted to make a school that was similar to what he had attended; yes a grammar school.

Very noble. I would rather a goverment, Tory or Labour built more state Grammar schools or Academies and improve existing schools rather than put education out to parents and the private sector.

And to conclude; my local authority gave my daughter none of her chosen secondary schools. The so-called experts of the local authorities, could not offer her a place at any of our local schools? As parents my wife and I had made the choice to enter her for private education. She passed every examination she took and will be going to one of the top academic schools in the country. I am perplexed that my bright sporting daughter wasn’t up to mustard for the local authority, yet good enough for the over competitive private sector?

I have a great deal of sympathy for you in relation to this, I don't agree with it at all far from it. I think some of the policies on school admission and the politics that drive them are wrong, totally totally wrong. I could go into a lot of detail on this but it is almost a thread in itself.

What I will say here though is that the same factors that likely made the local schools over look your daughter would very likely cause these state funded private schools pick other kids.

I don't agree with it, it is wrong and as I said I have sympathy for you in that regard but this policy would not solve that in fact he could make it worse.

I think ultimately rather than people relying on the state to provide the best for our children, parents need to be doing this. If this means creating new improved schools that parents want than so be it.

I totally agree that parents should be looking to provide the very best for their kids, I would never ever be critical of you, Tony or anyone else for that, never. In fact I respect you both for doing so and I would do the same I think any parent would I know I would.

I just believe that there should be a high standard of state education made up of Grammar, academies, comps and more technical 6th forms in order to best provide for all and then in addition to this the private schools. I don't believe in state funded private schools, in farming the responsibility for education to the lowest bidder which is what I fear this would become and to all the problems I've already detailed.

[Richard]

A lot has been made of the debt and clearing that by removing waste and is it possible or not.

There are over 250,000 civil servants working in Whitehall, there has to be a way of saving money there. Anyone any ideas?

[bickster]

On Education, has any party proposed removing religion from education completely? Be number one on my list of education reforms of which there would be a fair few

[TrentVilla]

In some cases its hard to argue that politicians/experts/teachers, etc have done much better. One would hope that a series of determined parents would do a better job, than a series of demotivated team of politicians/governors/experts/teachers. In virtually all cases its not like the parents will actually be doing the educating, they will be hiring professionals to do that.

Ok so how do you see that working exactly?

Take a good school in a good catchment area. The parents will largely be supportive, they will push their kids, they will support the school in terms of discipline and their kids will generally want to learn. In such a school there are unlikely to be demotivated staff yet it is these kids parents who are probably most likely able to make a significant contribution to the running of a school. At present they can do so by the way as school governors.

Then take a city centre school with a poor catchment area, unsupportive kids, behaviour issues in school and a lack of support from parents out of school. These are the schools with de-motivated staff, so tell me do you think the parents of these kids are going to be the ones willing and able to run a school?

Edit - Do you think parents are informed enough to recruit teachers? Having spent 10 years recruiting teachers I don't.

[bickster]

A lot has been made of the debt and clearing that by removing waste and is it possible or not.

There are over 250,000 civil servants working in Whitehall, there has to be a way of saving money there. Anyone any ideas?

Yep, remove the politicians

[tonyh29]

tonyh29 wrote:

Quote:

of course Labour and it's supporters will dismiss it out of hand as a bad idea ..such is politics

so 2 pages later and the answer is very very much ...THIS

No more so than all the Tory supporters will think its great.

Not every on either side dismisses policies simply on the basis of which party puts them forward.

So it's just a coincidence then :shock:

I'm not aware that any Tory supporters on here have said it is great ... I've agreed with some of the concerns as I had the same doubts I've also given examples of how it "could" work but to my knowledge "could" does not = "Great"

[TrentVilla]

I'm not aware that any Tory supporters on here have said it is great ... I've agreed with some of the concerns as I had the same doubts I've also given examples of how it "could" work but to my knowledge "could" does not = "Great"

No granted 'great' was a careless choice of word.

My point is though that you are suggesting that only one sides views on this policy are shaped by their political starting point I'm simply pointing out that the same accusation can be levelled at both sides. I think that point was fairly clear.

Yes you have given some examples of how it could work as well as expressing initial concerns, I've expressed my concerns and said I will read up on the examples you stated which I said I didn't know about. So I'm not sure there is much of a difference in our approaches other than the knowledge we each have as well as our political view points are different and so shape our views.

[PauloBarnesi]

And the notion that some teachers, ‘education experts’, politicians know what is best for children is equally laughable. Far too often the education of children has become an experiment for these people, and what the heck if it fails, these teachers, education experts and politicans can move on.

I never said anything about politicians so you can call it laughable all you want because its not what I said. Generally speaking though I believe that teachers, headteachers and heads of what used to be called LEA's do have a better understanding and knowledge when it comes to education than parent.

You say far too often education has become an experiment, so what exactly is this Tory policy? Is it not an experiment? I'm struggling to see your point here.

Indeed it is an experiment, but one where if I understand correctly parents can work together to set up a school. I would hope that parents would actually care about their offspring enough to make the right decisions. I don’t expect parents to do the teaching, but to appoint people to do everything that exists within a school. As often schools have a board of governors who do important things like appoint heads, this strikes me as nothing particularly radical.

When it comes down to it; you have good teachers, you have bad teachers. You have bad parents, you have good parents. But the way you worded your original argument, it struck me as being a dismissal of parents. In the end my children’s education will be dominated not by schools, but by my wife and myself. We will have made the key decisions, the sacrifices, etc. They may be wrong, but I would hope they are with my childrens best interests at heart. I am afraid that I don’t think that others who may be involved will always be the same.

Labour’s idea that getting rid of grammar schools would somehow lead to equality is a prime example. The Guardian yesterday ran an article on how the best comprehensive’s are now more selective than grammar schools were.

I don't disagree with you and I'm very much against the idea of closing Grammar schools, despite the accusations made in this thread although I have and will likely continue to vote Labour it doesn't mean I support every policy or agree with everything they do or say.

I'm very much in favour of the Grammar school option, I'm not advocating total equality of education by placing limitations on the most able children I never will.

I don't have issues with Grammar schools, with comp's having selective policies for intake and I don't have any issues with private schools. I don't have issues with increasing the autonomy of schools to run themselves and taking their control away from those with politics rather than education as motivation.

What I'm against is back door privatisation of education which this policy on the face of it appears to be. I don't really understand how at the start of your post you can say "Far too often the education of children has become an experiment for these people" and then support this policy.

I will again say that I hope that parents have the best wishes of their offspring at heart. If they feel that setting up schools is the best option, good luck to them.

So whilst Gordon may have benefitted from the grammar system, future generations won’t. Instead they will have to go through a frankly horrendous choice at secondary schools. Look at people like Blair, Harman, Abbott et al. When faced with the choice, they all opted for selective or private schooling, something there party argued against.

As I already said I agree with Grammar schools and I don't agree with Labour on this point. I don't though think that is the same issue as the policy put forward by the Tories.

Just me ranting tbh

In our local area ‘celebrity’ author Toby Young is trying to set up a school. He reasons that the choices are stark; expensive private school, religious schools, an over subscribed public school, or failing public school with both appalling discipline or academic records. He argued that he wanted to make a school that was similar to what he had attended; yes a grammar school.

Very noble. I would rather a goverment, Tory or Labour built more state Grammar schools or Academies and improve existing schools rather than put education out to parents and the private sector.

I am at a loss what is wrong with the private sector in terms of education. If you look at those ghastly tables, you will see the private sector and selective schools dominate the tables. Yes you get dreadful ‘private’ schools, but at the same time really good ones; often ex-grammar schools.

And to conclude; my local authority gave my daughter none of her chosen secondary schools. The so-called experts of the local authorities, could not offer her a place at any of our local schools? As parents my wife and I had made the choice to enter her for private education. She passed every examination she took and will be going to one of the top academic schools in the country. I am perplexed that my bright sporting daughter wasn’t up to mustard for the local authority, yet good enough for the over competitive private sector?

I have a great deal of sympathy for you in relation to this, I don't agree with it at all far from it. I think some of the policies on school admission and the politics that drive them are wrong, totally totally wrong. I could go into a lot of detail on this but it is almost a thread in itself.

What I will say here though is that the same factors that likely made the local schools over look your daughter would very likely cause these state funded private schools pick other kids.

I don't agree with it, it is wrong and as I said I have sympathy for you in that regard but this policy would not solve that in fact he could make it worse.

Again its me ranting, but at the heart people are desperate. Roman Abrmovitch has just donated a music centre to get his daughter into a local school!

I think ultimately rather than people relying on the state to provide the best for our children, parents need to be doing this. If this means creating new improved schools that parents want than so be it.

I totally agree that parents should be looking to provide the very best for their kids, I would never ever be critical of you, Tony or anyone else for that, never. In fact I respect you both for doing so and I would do the same I think any parent would I know I would.

I just believe that there should be a high standard of state education made up of Grammar, academies, comps and more technical 6th forms in order to best provide for all and then in addition to this the private schools. I don't believe in state funded private schools, in farming the responsibility for education to the lowest bidder which is what I fear this would become and to all the problems I've already detailed.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

The last few pages have summed up perfectly why party politics is incredibly out-dated and to put it simply we won't have an improved future with it.

I generally dislike most of the Tories policies, but I agree with their stance on education and because it's such an important issue it'd be sad just to see it be pushed away and any chances of reform silenced by any other parties if they win.

So, what the ****?

Flawed. Politics needs some fresh ideas, unfortunately our futures and childrens futures will be set aside until they sort themselves out and stop dividing people with their out-dated social values and realise that it isn't one set of values that a country should be run on, but a mix of many.

[drat01]

CED - Someone a few weeks back said that the "gvmt" should be split into electable bodies. so you would have a body for

- Health

- Defence

- Justice

- Educations

etc etc. Then for each of these you elect specific people who are responsible for national decisions

Obviously a flawed argument in many ways but I can see what they are getting at