Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #3 - GE Week One

[tonyh29]

The notion that some parents hold that they some how know best what their children need and how they should be taught in comparison to someone who has trained for years is simply laughable.

that was my first reaction but I don't think that is how it works .. they are not going to let the first bloke that thinks he knows best run his own school ... But on the "knowing best" principal , maybe some of them actually do .. As an example lets take my work, staff often come up with ideas and we implement them , i don't sit here and think No , I know best ..sometimes the new ideas and fresh approach can be the better ideas ....

What I'm struggling to see is on what level it could be a winner as you claim, in what senses could it be a winner?

In terms of the education the children receive ?

This ...

The NY figures showed that the charter schools do

better than traditional public schools in most respects. The effect of charter school attendance on growth results in both math and reading is almost entirely positive across the deciles.

The results also show that in New York City Black and Hispanic students enrolled in charter schools do

significantly better in reading and math compared to their counterparts in traditional public schools

which possibly helps answer some fears on how it affects poorer areas ?

Such a policy would without question lead to an increase in single faith schools

don't we currently have half the population converting to Catholicism just so they can get their kids into Catholic schools that are deemed to be better than others ?

increased social division along religious, racial and financial lines.

I think we already have this in this country tbh ..

but to go back to my sons school , it's a fee paying school , his class has Japanese , Turkish, Indian , Canadian , Chinese and I think even an Irish kid has somehow sneaked though the system :winkold: ... Each month the school picks a country from around the world and then puts on a big display at the main entrance and the children are encouraged to bring things in from that country , talk about and learn about .. For example On India day the Indian children and their parents were encouraged to come to school in traditional costume and talk about India ( There was some irony I guess that I'd been to more of India than the majority of the Indian people present so lots of them ended up asking me about certain areas :-) ) .. they bake traditional foods the kids get to learn about different cultures ...it's fantastic

Thus my son is 5 he has no perception of division on race or faith etc can't vouch for financial lines mind you as there are some right snobby clearings in the woods there :winkold: .. but the point is the school has that freedom , it has that happy feel to it ...... And that Is how to my mind the Charter school "could" work

[drat01]

Seems like the "backing" of some of the businessmen was just a product placement exercise - amazing how many pics of Cameron coming through and strategically placed at the back are products from these so called independent leaders of industry

[Clarry]

it's a fee paying school , his class has Japanese , Turkish, Indian , Canadian , Chinese and I think even an Irish kid has somehow sneaked though the system :winkold: ... Each month the school picks a country from around the world and then puts on a big display at the main entrance and the children are encouraged to bring things in from that country , talk about and learn about .. For example On India day the Indian children and their parents were encouraged to come to school in traditional costume and talk about India ( There was some irony I guess that I'd been to more of India than the majority of the Indian people present so lots of them ended up asking me about certain areas :-) ) .. they bake traditional foods the kids get to learn about different cultures ...it's fantastic

Thus my son is 5 he has no perception of division on race or faith etc can't vouch for financial lines mind you as there are some right snobby clearings in the woods there :winkold: .. but the point is the school has that freedom , it has that happy feel to it ...... And that Is how to my mind the Charter school "could" work

Sounds good.

That's what most Lambeth Primary schools do now. And it works...until they become teenagers and the hormones kick in!

[Richard]

I'm curious about the schools thing in the Tory manifesto - they apparently want to allow people to set up their own schools...

...that sounds like an absolutely horrendous idea to me and I can only hope theres considerably more to it than that.

Anyone know? Apparently there's a similar system in Sweden.

I believe that some existing schools were actually founded on this basis

[Guest Ricardomeister]

The BBC News report on charter schools was hardly a ringing endorsement, showing that results for half the pupils remained the same and for a third of pupils they went down, which means they only went up for a sixth of pupils. I would agree that there needs to be more discipline installed in our classrooms but I am far from convinced that these charter schools would make any difference here.

[PauloBarnesi]

The notion that some parents hold that they some how know best what their children need and how they should be taught in comparison to someone who has trained for years is simply laughable.

And the notion that some teachers, ‘education experts’, politicians know what is best for children is equally laughable. Far too often the education of children has become an experiment for these people, and what the heck if it fails, these teachers, education experts and politicans can move on.

Labour’s idea that getting rid of grammar schools would somehow lead to equality is a prime example. The Guardian yesterday ran an article on how the best comprehensive’s are now more selective than grammar schools were. So whilst Gordon may have benefitted from the grammar system, future generations won’t. Instead they will have to go through a frankly horrendous choice at secondary schools. Look at people like Blair, Harman, Abbott et al. When faced with the choice, they all opted for selective or private schooling, something there party argued against.

In our local area ‘celebrity’ author Toby Young is trying to set up a school. He reasons that the choices are stark; expensive private school, religious schools, an over subscribed public school, or failing public school with both appalling discipline or academic records. He argued that he wanted to make a school that was similar to what he had attended; yes a grammar school. This isn’t some back of the envelope thing; he’s doing a hell of a lot of work himself with like minded parents. Similar on our doorstep a city academy is being built. Not by the local authority but by the Mercers, a liveried company. Parents are delighted by being given this choice; why? Because the Mercers set up St Paul’s boys and girls schools, which are two of the best schools in the country. At least it gives future generations hope.

And to conclude; my local authority gave my daughter none of her chosen secondary schools. The so-called experts of the local authorities, could not offer her a place at any of our local schools? As parents my wife and I had made the choice to enter her for private education. She passed every examination she took and will be going to one of the top academic schools in the country. I am perplexed that my bright sporting daughter wasn’t up to mustard for the local authority, yet good enough for the over competitive private sector?

I think ultimately rather than people relying on the state to provide the best for our children, parents need to be doing this. If this means creating new improved schools that parents want than so be it.

[drat01]

So simply put Paul you are saying that money talks

[markavfc40]

If the latest polls are anything to go by then it appears people are wising up as the Tory lead is slipping.

[TrentVilla]

that was my first reaction but I don't think that is how it works .. they are not going to let the first bloke that thinks he knows best run his own school ... But on the "knowing best" principal , maybe some of them actually do .. As an example lets take my work, staff often come up with ideas and we implement them , i don't sit here and think No , I know best ..sometimes the new ideas and fresh approach can be the better ideas ....

So how are they going to asses peoples suitability? How are they going to asses their schools? Surely this process and the added requirements for Ofsted to inspect an even larger number of schools is going to result in increased public spending isn't it?

As for the knowing best principle, no sorry I don't accept that. My partner is a Deputy Head of a Primary school so I hear first hand on a daily basis some of the 'ideas' the parents have regarding the education of their children. Mind blowing.

I'm not saying those from outside the education sector don't have a role to play or a contribution they can make but I simply don't accept that they have an overall better understanding of the educational needs of children (its not just about their child) than highly trained professionals.

There is a rather annoying trend in this country for teachers being almost looked down on, a lot of people especially parents don't see half the work they do both in training and on the job and seriously under estimate the knowledge and expertise they have.

They spend 4 years at Uni then train on the job I simply don't see how someone with no education experience could a) manage a team of teachers and lead a school.

I know exactly what you mean about new ideas and taking ideas from the shop floor from your staff, I do the same with mine and often they come up with the best ones. I wouldn't though put them in charge.

Besides that isn't the same thing really, how many fresh ideas do you currently take from your customers? Because taking ideas from your staff would be akin to giving the teachers more say in the running of schools not parents.

The results also show that in New York City Black and Hispanic students enrolled in charter schools do significantly better in reading and math compared to their counterparts in traditional public schools

You clearly know more about the American system than I do, I will have to do some reading I think until then I can't really comment on this at. If there is clear evidence of an educational benefit to the system then I will agree that giving it closer examination has some merit but at this stage I remain doubtful of both the benefits and the politics of this policy.

don't we currently have half the population converting to Catholicism just so they can get their kids into Catholic schools that are deemed to be better than others ?

Half the population? Some people without question but lets be sensible the numbers are quite small in reality. There is a notion that single faith schools, especially Catholic schools are better and often it is true but I'm not sure I would want to encourage more single faith schools especially within minority groups which would as I say result in greater social division.

You are obviously right when you say we already have that division, which is why I said 'increased social division' rather than it would create social division. I don't really think that point can be disputed.

but to go back to my sons school , it's a fee paying school , his class has Japanese , Turkish, Indian , Canadian , Chinese and I think even an Irish kid has somehow sneaked though the system :winkold: ... Each month the school picks a country from around the world and then puts on a big display at the main entrance and the children are encouraged to bring things in from that country , talk about and learn about .. For example On India day the Indian children and their parents were encouraged to come to school in traditional costume and talk about India ( There was some irony I guess that I'd been to more of India than the majority of the Indian people present so lots of them ended up asking me about certain areas :-) ) .. they bake traditional foods the kids get to learn about different cultures ...it's fantastic

You son school sounds excellent but who runs it? I also think there is a marked difference between private school who will essentially accept any pupil of any background so long as the parents can pay the fee's and a state/private hybrid. Such a state/private hybrid would be state funded but self governing and as a result likely to be far less inclusive in terms of its admission policy than your sons school.

Thus my son is 5 he has no perception of division on race or faith etc can't vouch for financial lines mind you as there are some right snobby clearings in the woods there :winkold: .. but the point is the school has that freedom , it has that happy feel to it ...... And that Is how to my mind the Charter school "could" work

To be honest Tony very few if any 5 year olds have any notion or perception of divisions of race or faith, only the worst of parents manage to force such things onto the mind of children so young and thankfully they are few and far between no matter what the media tell us.

If you were to go to the state Primary school in which my misses is the Deputy Head you would see classes of mixed ethnicity and nationality and no issues of division at all and the school is in one of the poorest in the country. They also do just about all the things your sons school that you just detailed.

So I don't really see this as a problem that needs fixing I actually see this 'solution' causing more of a problem in this area.

There are only two reasons that I can see for this policy, one is semi privatisation of education with the goal of driving down spend which as I've already said I would question. Or, the improvement in the education delivered which needs further investigation before the policy should be adopted.

There are three main reasons why the performance of children at schools like your sons are better than a lot state schools and they are 1, resources 2, class sizes and 3, the parents. oh and the fact that often the kids are more naturally gifted as you would expect considering their parents can afford the fees in the first place.

[LJRM050389]

They should do what they do / did in Birghton, lottery entry into state schools, then the peer effect can help everyone

[PauloBarnesi]

So simply put Paul you are saying that money talks

Of course money is important. Whether that be on private education, the state using money well, etc, etc. But more important than what money is spent, parents are the most important things to a childrens development. Too many people, many with too much money, expect someone to educate their children, to look after their children, to parent their children. Ultimately some people seem to think its someone else’s responsibility to bring up their offspring. This has nothing to do with money. I ve seen parents with little money make huge personal sacrifices for their children and the children (and the parents) have reaped the benefit. What frustrates me when I see children fail.

I don’t believe that the Tories or Labour or Liberal Democrats hold all the answers individually to this. What I do know is that people could wait till the end of the world though if they expect the state to educate/parent their children.

Rant over.

[mjmooney]

I am dismayed with the number of parents who do not have faith in their own children's ability. Unfortunately, in Lambeth, this is down to a lot of White British "middle-class" parents who think it is better to educate their children in neighbouring boroughs (with the same or worse results, especially at GCSE).

These are the parents of children that will usually do well, regardless.

I'm all for the days of sending your children to the nearest school available.

Basically, if you teach your children to count and do the alphabet before they are of school age, they're likely to be fine.

This. Our kids simply went to the nearest primary and high schools (admittedly in "reasonable" catchment areas). They did fine, although as you say, they could already count and read before they started, which gave them an advantage.

Incidentally, I am very much opposed to the whole specialist/academy school nonsense. I believe high schools should provide a good general education for all kids, instead of trying to get them to specialise at 11-15 in music, sport, I.T., etc.

[Guest Ricardomeister]

I do not believe a word of this supposed emphasis by the Tories of giving power to the people. If that is so then why does this same piece of hypocrisy (I mean manifesto!) have a plan to re-introduce hunting with dogs (as that is clearly what it is in spite of the supposed free vote) when every reputable poll still shows a huge majority of people are opposed to this (75-80%)?! I cannot believe a word that comes from a party of hypocrites, which the Tories clearly are imo (as are many from Labour too).....which doesn't leave much choice of who to actually vote for!

[tonyh29]

showing that results for half the pupils remained the same and for a third of pupils they went down, which means they only went up for a sixth of pupils.

as per above there seemed to be regional variations not to mention different figures being quoted as on the radio last night the figure was 33 % of schools had showed significant improvement ... I've not seen why those regional variations have occurred but the trick would be to ensure that the "working" model is followed I guess .. as I say NY the results have been largely positive ..why they appear to have succeeded when other areas have failed I really have no idea

[tonyh29]

of course Labour and it's supporters will dismiss it out of hand as a bad idea ..such is politics

so 2 pages later and the answer is very very much ...THIS

[snowychap]

Having the combination of a zero-marginal-rate tax bracket and a basic tax credit creates the poverty trap.

End one of them and you make the effective marginal tax rates much smoother

What do you mean by a 'basic tax credit'?

I think you need to clarify because I wonder whether you mean the tax credit system that applies in the UK.

If so, why did we have the poverty trap before tax credits were in place?

...(and depending on how you rejigger the tax system, it's quite possibly more progressive... by the end of Reagan's term, the US federal income tax, despite the top marginal rate dropping from 91% to 28%, was more progressive than the pre-JFK income tax (JFK cut the top marginal rate from 91% to 70%)).

When you say 'top marginal rate', do you mean the highest marginal rate paid by anyone?

I'm not really sure what you are suggesting but I fear that you are attacking the problem from a purely statistical angle, i.e. how best to reduce (or eliminate) the poverty trap (full stop). The easiest way would be to make the poor much poorer but I can't believe you are suggesting that. :winkold:

[tonyh29]

If the latest polls are anything to go by then it appears people are wising up as the Tory lead is slipping.

looking at the sky tracker Labour and Lib dems haven't moved , the tories seem to have slipped and "Others " is the only one showing a gain

Labours Manifesto really just needed to say "it wasn't us guv and even if it was it would be far worse under the Tories" as that's all they've really said for the past year

Though Gordon has finally admitted he made a mistake with the banks I believe , that must be a first ??

[drat01]

Cameron while wearing a "holiday in Belize" T-Shirt and driving on a JCB, has said that "it's all Labours fault and if you don;t like it the Bullingodn / Eton mafia will smash your oikish heads in with a bread roll"

[tonyh29]

Cameron while wearing a "holiday in Belize" T-Shirt and driving on a JCB, has said that "it's all Labours fault and if you don;t like it the Bullingodn / Eton mafia will smash your oikish heads in with a bread roll"

tbf what he actaully said was "our butlers will smash your oikish heads in with a bread roll"

[markavfc40]

If the latest polls are anything to go by then it appears people are wising up as the Tory lead is slipping.

looking at the sky tracker Labour and Lib dems haven't moved , the tories seem to have slipped and "Others " is the only one showing a gain

Labours Manifesto really just needed to say "it wasn't us guv and even if it was it would be far worse under the Tories" as that's all they've really said for the past year

I don't think Labour really need to spell that out do they as any fool can work out for themselves we'd be in a far worse position under a Tory governement.