CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 :? how would killing someone cost more than keeping them in prison for life? Florida has spent around $57 million on the death penalty for just 18 executions. This averages to about $3.2 million per execution. The California death penalty system costs taxpayers $114 million per year beyond the costs of keeping convicts locked up for life. Taxpayers have paid more than $250 million for each of the state’s executions.(L.A. Times, March 6, 2005) In Kansas, the costs of capital cases are 70% more expensive than comparable non-capital cases, including the costs of incarceration. (Kansas Performance Audit Report, December 2003). In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. (Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsailor9774 Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 For the record, i voted death. I'm not going to jump on any bandwagons or label you anything, but i'm intrigued to know what gives you the moral superiority in this situation when you advocate such a thing? If you knowingly put someone to death (or murder as it's commonly known), or even advocate it puts you in a position that you are just as bad as those who kill? What gives you the right to take a life? in my view if we had the death penalty as an option then the criminal knows what could await them... I think if you believe capital punishment would have prevented the bulger killing, you're really barking up the wrong tree fella. you think these kids thought through their actions? Putting the body on railtracks in an attempt for it to be totally destroyed beyond recognition tells me they did. i don't see why it tells you that, but there you go. They clearly didn't know enough about forensics or body disposal. Neither do most murderers who try to dispose of bodies so that point is worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 there are other ways of saving money in our judicial system without resorting to the death penalty, i doubt a figure will ever be released but how much do you think we've actually spent on this pair? and again its OT but dragging back up the yorkshire ripper case for the sake of waving a "rehabilitation:prison works" flag, thats going to run into the millions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dappadan Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 My opinion isn't one i come too lightly, i did question my view on the death penalty for those who abuse children, based on the thought that if a child abuser knew he would be hung if caught, would that increase the likely hood of them also murdering their victim(s)? In my opinion I think you are misunderestimating the complexities of these peoples mind sets. In their opinion, being attracted to a child is perfectly normal, they don't know any better. They may be aware that society does not permit it but they are driven to do what they do by the most powerful force we have and that is our sex drives and no punishment awaiting them will deter them, much like you or I will still fancy/desire a co-worker even if she has a wedding ring. Humans don't need deterrents they need prevention. And in my opinion instead of threatening them with the death penalty, castrating them would be a more effective way of solving the problem. In this case however, a death penalty will serve no purpose whatsoever. These kids (at the time) did what they did because they didn't know any better, it's as simple as that. It doesn't make it right but that is the reality of the situation, for us to prevent these things happening in the future isn't, as i said, killing them off. It's rehabilitating them and understanding what went wrong and using this knowledge to prevent it. They shouldn't in my opinion be released to enjoy a normal life but nor should they be put to death. Not because they don't deserve to die but simply because no one has a right to take another life. No one does. I am not taking any sides here but these kids certainly did know better, that much is evident from the police interviews and the social workers talking about what they were like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 10, 2010 VT Supporter Share Posted March 10, 2010 The death penalty debate is one thats been had on here numerous times, it frankly doesn't work as a deterant, isn't cheaper (if you've gotten to the point that humanity's worth is more to do with sterling then I'd probably say you've other problems at work but still...), it makes a hypocrite of the state, it arguably brutalises society (we look to the state for guidance, generally, and a state that kills criminals is one that endorses a nasty life perspective) and an issue that's often overlooked is also raised. That is that it has the potential to make crimes worse. If you know that your crime will see your death sooner or later, whats to stop you really going for it? Take out as many as you can, nothing to lose. Gonna rob a place, might have to take out the store owner? Might as well take the customers as well, saves the hassle. Etc etc. Of course, that is pointless to think of in the Bulger case. A 10yo is barely aware of the concept of death, imo (at least in so far as how deep a concept it is... They probably barely value their own life as precious), it isn't going to deter them from doing something like that if they are inclined anyway. And of course any developed, modern nation making 10yo's do the hemp fandango is suddenly going to find it's moral highground on shakey footings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 The death penalty doesn't help prevent crimes and it cost more than keeping people in prison. When you understand those two things is there any other reason left to bing it in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 10, 2010 VT Supporter Share Posted March 10, 2010 The death penalty doesn't help prevent crimes and it cost more than keeping people in prison. When you understand those two things is there any other reason left to bing it in? Retribution, vengeance, call it what you will. That's just about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Blood lust, in other words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 The death penalty doesn't help prevent crimes and it cost more than keeping people in prison. Not calling you a liar or anything but how does the death penaty cost more than say 20 years in prison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Look at the stats i provided on the previous page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsailor9774 Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 . However, it could deter the thief holding up the post office from killing the post master for example. how would that help in the bulger case? :? He asked me a question about the death penalty, not the bulger case. bollocks he did. he said, "IN THIS SITUATION". He asked me what gave me moral superiority in the situation under debate. yes he did. The situation under debate being hanging the 2 bulger boys. Couldn't be any clearer matey. He said "takes someone's life" as in a general use of the death penalty, which i answered. I then gave an example of where it could/might be a deterrent to particular criminals. Can't see your problem....... matey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 10, 2010 VT Supporter Share Posted March 10, 2010 The death penalty doesn't help prevent crimes and it cost more than keeping people in prison. Not calling you a liar or anything but how does the death penaty cost more than say 20 years in prison? CED has linked some figures on the previous page which are well worth a look. However, think about it. A death row prisoner is held like another life prisoner, for a considerable length of time. During this time, they are granted a right to appeals which again take time (more cost on imprisoning them) and also cost a fortune. They have numerous rounds of these and it takes years to ensure as far as possible that 'justice' is done (i use the quotations here because I don't believe justice can end with a state sanctioned death in a legal sense). I'd imagine the actual execution is hardly cheap either. You effectively take all the costs of a long term top level imprisonment, add in the exceptionally lengthy and high cost of a high level appeal system, and the ultimate cost of killing them. Isn't cheaper by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsailor9774 Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 The death penalty doesn't help prevent crimes and it cost more than keeping people in prison. Not calling you a liar or anything but how does the death penaty cost more than say 20 years in prison? CED has linked some figures on the previous page which are well worth a look. However, think about it. A death row prisoner is held like another life prisoner, for a considerable length of time. During this time, they are granted a right to appeals which again take time (more cost on imprisoning them) and also cost a fortune. They have numerous rounds of these and it takes years to ensure as far as possible that 'justice' is done (i use the quotations here because I don't believe justice can end with a state sanctioned death in a legal sense). I'd imagine the actual execution is hardly cheap either. You effectively take all the costs of a long term top level imprisonment, add in the exceptionally lengthy and high cost of a high level appeal system, and the ultimate cost of killing them. Isn't cheaper by any means. I never agreed to appeals........ i was more in favour of this scenario Judge - "i sentence you to death for the crimes you have committed. Now say goodbye to the folks you know, you're swinging in 5 minutes" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 But what if the conviction was wrong? Be too late wouldn't it? Pretty much undermines the justice system, may aswell go live in a tribe in africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 I never agreed to appeals As we have appeals as part of our justice system, are you suggesting a different scenario (i.e. no appeals) just for crimes which would receive the death penalty in your world (as opposed to appeals for all other crimes)? Or are you suggesting that you would get rid of appeals full stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsailor9774 Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 I never agreed to appeals As we have appeals as part of our justice system, are you suggesting a different scenario (i.e. no appeals) just for crimes which would receive the death penalty in your world (as opposed to appeals for all other crimes)? Or are you suggesting that you would get rid of appeals full stop? I knew that comment would have you up in arms........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 I knew that comment would have you up in arms........ :? So what? Any chance of answering the question(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsailor9774 Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 I knew that comment would have you up in arms........ :? So what? Any chance of answering the question(s)? No appeal against the Death penalty....... appeals against other sentences will be allowed, but if the original sentence is found to be correct it will then be doubled with no right to appeal........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 10, 2010 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2010 I didn't vote in the poll, when eleven year olds are killing two year olds there isn't an option that works, it's an unsolvable problem and everyone involved loses. There's a lot wrong with the systems of law and justice in this country, but for me it's simply not possible for anyone to find a solution to this mess, either through punishment or rehabilitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 10, 2010 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2010 Putting the body on railtracks in an attempt for it to be totally destroyed beyond recognition tells me they did. And tell me, how often is this train line used? Do you know the frequency of the trains on the Canada Dock Branch line? I'll wager that the kids thought it was an abandoned train line as it virtually is. It took only two days for a train to do the damage, it could have been weeks, not sure I've ever seen more than two trains on it in all the years I've lived here. Its also pretty bloody close to a police station (like 100 yards tops). I really don't think you've made the correct assumption there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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