Phil Dowd Thread (Merged)

[Maradona10]

This won't bother Dowd, he's impressed Fergie, thats all it was about. Doubt he'll ref a Villa game at VP this year.

[Hanky]

I would love Dowd to come out and explain why there was no yellow for Vidic or Rafael.

He hasn't got one or can't say it because he probably would be kicked off the refereeing panel.

[The_Steve]

Martin Samuel

And here, in miniature, is why English football ends up with the odd broken leg, and a never-ending debate about the nature and boundaries of fair play.

We play a version of the rules in this country, one with enough room to accommodate what we want football to be: a right old tear-up.

We got one at Wembley on Sunday. Nobody came to physical harm and, over 90 minutes, the best team won.

Pulling power: Fans turn up in their thousands to watch a tear-up, and Vidic's foul on Agbonlahor fuels yet another debate

Yet, in the fifth minute, Nemanja Vidic, the Manchester United centre half, pulled, tripped and manhandled Gabriel Agbonlahor to the ground on the way to goal. He conceded a penalty, which James Milner scored, but not so much as a yellow card was produced by Phil Dowd, the referee, let alone the red many felt should have resulted.

In the aftermath, there were various explanations advanced. Vidic said he was tackling from in front of the player, not behind, and that this made it different. Others argued that Agbonlahor was not heading directly towards goal, and therefore Vidic was not denying a goalscoring opportunity.

Richard Dunne, the Aston Villa defender, who managed while wearing his Republic of Ireland shirt to exchange philosophical pleasantries with Thierry Henry after the infamous handball in Paris, was equally fatalistic here.

‘It’s better to play against 11 men and it made it a better game,’ he said. ‘They got a man sent off at Villa Park, and it didn’t make any difference.’

Well, yes and no. United had Nani dismissed at Villa Park, after 29 minutes when the scores were tied at 1-1 and that was the score at the end.

So had the scores also stayed the same when 10 played 11 yesterday, Villa would have won 1-0. Plus, there is considerable difference between losing a nippy winger with 61 minutes to go and the most experienced centre-half with 86 minutes to survive. To replace Vidic, United would have had to introduce Wes Brown at the expense of a midfielder: Ji-Sung Park, perhaps, or Antonio Valencia, who set up the winning goal and won man of the match.

As far as mitigation goes, Vidic says he was in front of Agbonlahor when he brought him down, but that was because he claimed his shirt with his initial foul, forcing him to stop and change direction. It is a lot easier to get in front of people if you can grab their apparel. Amazing, really, that none of Usain Bolt’s rivals have ever thought of gaining an edge in this way.

Then there is the question of the route. Agbonlahor may not have been running directly at the goal, but he certainly wasn’t running away from it. He was changing his angle, as strikers do when they are preparing to shoot, because hitting across the goalkeeper is often preferred to firing straight.

Agbonlahor can be seen checking where the goal is immediately before Vidic brings him down, which suggests a goal attempt. Anyway, if Agbonlahor was no threat to goal, why foul him? Why didn’t Vidic just wave him on his way to wherever the hell Dowd thought he was going and leave him be? Vidic tripped him because he was a danger. He was a danger because he had a chance of scoring.

Phil Dowd

Dunne’s observation is the key to it all, though, because he reflects a popular view. How many times is a referee eulogised for keeping 22 players on the field, to satisfy what the English want from a football match? Dowd must have been horrified at the thought of reducing United to 10 after less than four minutes at Wembley.

He would have received the inevitable blast from Sir Alex Ferguson, the inevitable accusations of ruining the game and the spectacle. We never consider that English football might be an even greater spectacle if the most talented players were allowed freedom of expression, without getting bludgeoned to the floor.

Instead, we consider the spectacle simplistically as 90 minutes of frenzied activity, no quarter given, and remain the only country mystified if a referee books the first foul. When a yellow card is produced how often do you hear the complaint that it was a first offence? Here’s a newsflash: you don’t get a free hit on the house. Well, you’re not supposed to, anyway.

Martin O’Neill, the Aston Villa manager, was less accepting of Dowd’s decision than Dunne, calling it inexplicable and saying it was universally accepted that a mistake had been made. Not entirely.

Ferguson said Vidic was lucky not to be booked, as near as he would come to admitting this was an escape. Either way, he was fortunate. Even had Dowd merely gone for a yellow card, the centre half would have had to play on tenterhooks for the rest of the game. As it was he could afford to give Agbonlahor another kick from behind in the 67th minute, and make that his first bookable offence.

‘The studs go in, the tackles fly, this is football, English-style,’ sang I, Ludicrous (sadly obscure indie band, check out the magnificent Preposterous Tales below), and what happened at Wembley is the thin end of that particular wedge. The thick end is what Aaron Ramsey copped at the Britannia Stadium on Saturday, when his leg was broken by the sort of challenge many would call part and parcel of the game.

And it is. Just like keeping 11 against 11, whatever the circumstances; just like allowing a first foul, gratis. In the English version, anyway.

[Maradona10]

Spot on by Samuel, but what us Villa fans don't get and what frustrates me more than the actual sending off's, was if you didn't book Vidic because you wanted to keep it 11 vs 11, then why book Collins/Downing which then wouldn't allow them to put another challenge in? Thats what made me think it was more to please Ferguson.

[The_Steve]

"So had the scores also stayed the same when 10 played 11 yesterday, Villa would have won 1-0. Plus, there is considerable difference between losing a nippy winger with 61 minutes to go and the most experienced centre-half with 86 minutes to survive. To replace Vidic, United would have had to introduce Wes Brown at the expense of a midfielder: Ji-Sung Park, perhaps, or Antonio Valencia, who set up the winning goal and won man of the match. "

Samuel is dead right. Imagine if Valencia or Park went off after 5 minutes - it would have been a different game.

[justjustin]

Everyone with the exception of Poll agree that a card was wrongly not given the only person who wont be heard from is the clown who took a carling cup final and screwed it up because he doesnt have the spine for it and puts taggerts opinon above the rights and wrongs of his own job which I believe is laughingly referred to as a professional referee

[notoriousjim]

Hate to say I told you so but weeks ago when they announced Dowd was the ref I posted my misgivings.

More concerned that Dowd's the ref to be honest than what strip we're wearing. That clearing in the woods was in charge at the Emirates and totally biased towards the Sky 4 club and O'Neill criticised his performance afterwards. Don't expect it to be any different at Wembley.

He was totally out of his depth and should never have been anywhere near a major final. The only refs qualified for these occasions are those on the Fifa elite refs panel Howard Webb and Mike Deane.

[justjustin]

What do you think the chances are that the FA will be influenced by this piss poor display when it comes to allocating this idiot another game I gonna say.........none at all

[tinker]

Start with with a facebook, group one that includes Man U in the title..... "Will Phil Dowd be the next Man U manager?" Loads will join even none villa fans.

[DiegoD]

Agree with so much Samuel has said. Watching it on tv i was just waiting for Dowd to pull out the card but it just never came. It was as clear a red as you get. Whats worse is that he then starts booking Villa players for late tackles and ignores it when carrick does the same thing literally one minute later.

But i have given up on refs this season the only thing i want to see is both teams treated the same but i could be waiting a while.

[The_Steve]

You can become 'a fan' of Phil "no balls" Dowd on Facebook

[TJVilla]

An absolutely disgraceful decision yesterday.

If Vidic received a yellow card, I could hold my hands up and say 'yes we were beaten by a better team'. However, it was as blatant a red as you're likely to see.

I echo the sentiments of 'the occassion', but football is not about that. We didn't write the rules, but they're there for the good of the game, and should be enforced. There is noway, as has been said umpteen times already, that Dunne or Collins would've got away without a booking at least, had the incident happened at the other end of the pitch.

It just smacks of inconsistency. We were getting bookings for very little that their lads were getting let off for. Everyone has already mentioned Rafael / Vidic / Carrick. Its ridiculous. And what was the 'offside' 5 mins from time? 2 Man Utd players playing Gabby and Ashley onside when the ball was played.

If Vidic goes after 4 minutes, the whole complexion of the game changes. They have to sacrifice a midfielder, or even an attacker, and already we aren't instantly under pressure from their onslaught. It is easier to play against 10 men when we've got 11, especially given the state of the pitch. Their play / tactics / substitutions etc would all have had to change after losing their strongest centre-back. Rafael and Vidic both looked terrified of Gabby and Ashley running at them yesterday, which is why they kept kicking out and blocking their runs off.

Im not saying if Vidic was sent off, we'd have won, but I think we'd have had a better chance. If we still lost when they were down to 10 men, fair enough, but this is disgraceful.

There should be a full investigation (unlikely to happen seeing as though its already being swept under the carpet) and Dowd should never be allowed to officiate again. Alternatively, a more extreme measure, would be re-play the game from 3 mins with Man Utd down to 10 men! (Never gonna happen in a million years, but more likely than Dowd coming out and explaining his decision).

Feel absolutely sick knowing that we lost out by something that's totally beyond our control. Yes they played better, but they are better. We didn't play on an even keel last night, so we should be even more proud of what we nearly achieved.

Well done lads, you did us proud. We may not have won the cup, but we won a lot of friends. Unfortunately we cant put them in a trophy cabinet. We'll just have to get our justice in the FA Cup final.

UTV

[The_Lions_Roar]

Its a shame that once again we find ourselves talking about a referee instead of the game, i hope he's proud of himself.

[The_Steve]

Patrick Barclay

Once again, so much of the talk was about a match’s fraudulence rather than its technical merits and little dramas.

Thanks, Fifa, for obliging us to discuss the Carling Cup final in terms of whether Manchester United should have had 11 men or ten at Wembley yesterday. A nebulous law, which I think we can safely trust the International Board not to bother discussing at its annual meeting in Switzerland next weekend, was to blame.

So, in my opinion, was Phil Dowd, the referee. For him not to have dismissed Nemanja Vidic for a double foul on Gabriel Agbonlahor — serial jersey-tugging, followed by a mistimed and slightly high tackle — beggared belief. Yet the truth is that Dowd made a tenable interpretation of Law 12, which states: “A player is sent off if he denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or penalty.”

Although you might think that this rendered the Vidic instance an open-and-shut case, the situation is complicated by guidelines advising referees that the attacker should be moving “directly” towards goal.

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It is nonsensical and unnecessarily restrictive, but it does give them the option of, in effect, deeming a penalty kick sufficient punishment. And this is what Dowd did, allowing Vidic to remain on the pitch, where, as United’s celebrations began, he expressed agreement with the decision on the ground that Agbonlahor “was not in front of me”.

We all saw what happened. After using his pace to get in front of the United defender, Agbonlahor was held back until, stumbling, he allowed Vidic to draw level. Then, with an expertly timed second spurt, Agbonlahor won the foul. If it was a penalty — and Dowd conceded that much — it was a red card under any sensibly drafted law.

But that is something the game is not granted. While most of us would agree that Agbonlahor’s run was “direct” enough to qualify for the ultimate punishment, only Dowd’s opinion mattered and some obscure addition to the statutes supported it. It is a perfect illustration of how the guidelines, while well intentioned, have become a menace, causing the very controversy they are supposed to limit.

If Dowd had applied the basic law, even Sir Alex Ferguson would have been unlikely to complain and Martin O’Neill would not have taken Aston Villa towards the M40 with a sense of grievance.

Who would have won? We cannot say for sure because United were very much the superior footballing side on the day, after Darren Fletcher and Michael Carrick had loosened the midfield grip established early by James Milner and Stiliyan Petrov.

As the dank afternoon wore on, we could see why Ferguson had been so keen to add Dimitar Berbatov to Wayne Rooney in 2008, paying Tottenham Hotspur a club-record £30.75 million.

The beauty of the winning goal, the slickness of the one-two between Antonio Valencia and Berbatov and the almost uncanny judgment of Rooney’s header, epitomised how the pair can work together. When the Bulgarian exerts himself, his devilish subtlety makes the game look easy and Rooney, of course, is the man of the season so far, his status threatened only by Didier Drogba’s achievements with Chelsea.

Chelsea? That suddenly fading force. What a weekend it was for United and all who sail in her. After Manchester City, of all people, had got it off to a fine start. All Ferguson’s villains — noisy neighbours, referees — are coming to his aid.

[Baalberith]

Just got back from London. After seeing it on TV and reading all the papers it just makes it worse.

What an absolute word removed Phil Dowd is. **** joke. I can't believe it, and even reading the match thread on Red Cafe and the United fans' disbelief at Vidic staying on the pitch says it all.

[ramshackler]

I'm sorry to keep on about this, but ive read the above about interpretation of 'moving directly towards goal' and also graham poll on radio this morning stating he probably didnt send him off as he was moving away from goal...

ERM NO! vidic did get back goal side, but no matter what angle you look at it from, gabby pushed the ball past him in the exact direction of the goal and his next act was an unimpeded shot at goal if he wasnt pulled down.

Blatantly heading towards goal and blatant red card. he does need to be questioned about this and suspended

[barry'sboots]

he does need to be questioned about this and suspended

Doesn't really help us though. I'd rather he was given our next big game thinking that he owed us big time (as he probably did re ManU after all the stick he has had from Fergie over the last 6 months!).

[Vojskovoda]

It's always interesting to see opposing defenders bring down Gabby in the box rather than just let him shoot... and probably miss.

Remember guys, this isn't the first time Vidic has done this... and got away with it; he did it last season at home and got away with a penalty being given and from being sent off. Infact, it wouldn't actually surprise me if Dowd officiated that match too...

It just wasn't not sending off Vidic which rattled my cage... hilariously a few minutes later he booked Collins and Cuellar for nothing fouls and was consistently keeping a blind eye to every foul Utd players were committing until the 2nd half when he eventually book (you guessed it) Vidic.

It's unfortunate that again a game can't be officated correctly in a Cup Final because our current crop of shit referees can't get basic decisions right, Phil Dowd is just an example really of how bad the referees in this country are, I'd like to think the FA take the approach and employ Spanish referees who don't take any shit and officate games correctly even if they go a bit OTT with the red cards sometimes.

[Gingerlad]

I've not read all 15 pages but was anyo9ne else confused when he played on with Petrov down (fair enough) and then when we got the ball with Young about to attack he blew for assistance to Petrov. (annoying but understandable) And then, to restart the game, he just gave Man U the ball?????

How is that the right choice? It should be a drop ball with us kicking it back to them or a proper challenged one.

Not a drop ball for them to just pass it about.

He was truly poor, inconsistant which is the worst thing a ref can be.

[Villarocker]

I actually didn't think he should of been sent off because I think Agbonlahor's touch took him to an angle which would of made it really hard to score from. However should of been booked which could/would of lead to a red card.

Even by your logic, he's still been denied a goalscoring opportunity, whether it's a difficult one or not. The only reason Gabby had to check back anyway was because he was having his shirt pulled and being fouled.

Yes but then you could argue pretty much every foul in the box should be a red-card.

I think had Gabby not had a poor touch and kept driving like at goal and Vidic bought him down, it's a definate red. However I'm not sure, i'd want to see another replay.

I don't have any complaints. We were 1-0 up, we put in alot of effort but we're beaten. I think Dowd was incosistant and made some bad decisions but i'm not going to blame our loss on that.

That's just great that is! The man, whose duty it is to uphold the laws of the game on the pitch, fails to do his job properly and you find an angle in which to blame the much-maligned Gabby for having a poor touch! Seriously AVFCBrum, that is an outrageous comment to make.

The ref **** up, simple as that. Everyone knows it and retired refs are saying it too. The guy was too gutless to do his job because it involved sending off Man Utd's best defender and he knew how much of a big impact that would have on the game.

Regarding Dunne's comments, this game was totally different to the one in the league at Villa Park. We had not long conceded the equalising goal to them, in the league game, and were probably looking at making sure that we didn't lose the point that we had, rather than to go throwing caution to the wind by going all out for the winner. Sunday's game was different in the fact that the sending off would have come a lot earlier - 24 minutes earlier in fact - and that we wouldn't have had to be so cautious as there would have been no points to lose.

I have heard people talking of the club asking for some kind of retro-spective action being taken against Vidic but personally I wouldn't want him to receive a 3 match ban after the event. Man Utd play Liverpool in 3 league games time and I would rather see them at full strength as we would want Utd to win that one!