LondonLax Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Evolution. According to people that don't believe in a God, our body's think for themselves in how they want to change. You have made a mistake in your understanding of evolution with that bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Evolution. According to people that don't believe in a God, our body's think for themselves in how they want to change. Certainly no-one in history has claimed they had a kid different to themselves because they decided evolution needing a little push. Couldn't "evolution" be the work of God? That is not the theory of evolution at all mate. It basically goes like this. Everything mutates all the time. Whether that mutation is blue eyes or ginger hair or stronger teeth or whatever. Some mutations (ie, stronger teeth) might lead to an animal being more successful. These more successful animals are more likely to survive and breed and spread their genes, which leads to their offspring being more like them. This continues over millions of years and different species arrive as a result. Its been proven to a certain extent, take a look at the world of pedigree dog breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.I.C.O. Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Don't believe in god. Religion is a business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I'm a non believer yet fasinated in the subject largelly in a historical context. One question I always have for believers is if you believe Jesus was the son of God and that he will return why did he choose that point in human history and why did he choose that place to appear? Actually the time of Jesus's arrival or the Messiah was promised in the book of Daniel there was a period of years given from the time the Jewish line of Kings was cut off when the Babylonians invaded Jerusalem and ended the line with King Zedekiah. This is the reason why thousands of years later King Herod ordered all the children up to the age of two, put to death at the time of Jesus's birth and why Jospeh took his wife and son and fled to Egypt.The Jews were looking for the Messiah to be born around the time he was. Herod was afraid his rulership would be threatened so had any new borns killed just in case. The Bible prophesied that Jesus would be born of the ancestral line of King David and also that he would be born in Bethlehem. As found in Micah Chapter 5 V 2. The book of Micah was written sometime before the destruction of Samaria in 740 BCE. Interesting to note that reason Jospeh and Mary were in Bethlehem was because of the Census that Roman Emperor Caesar Augustus ordered throughout Judea in order to assess tax levies due. They were compelled therefore to travel from Nazereth, the village they lived in, to return to the town of their family line, the City of David..Bethlehem Ephrathah, despite the fact that his wife was heavily pregnant. Also worth noting from a historical point of view that the book of Daniel correctly mentions an "Exactor" going through the kingdom of Judea,.in the prophecies about the line of rulers to come in the future. Daniel 11 V 20. , If at that time God sent his son because he thought that mankind needed saving has he not returned or sent another messenger in 2000 years despite man kinds deprevity sinking to far greater lows in the last 2000 years. Why not send an envoy when the world twice tore itself apart killing millions in the process? why not step in when we started dropping atomic bombs? I just don't understand the logic in the belief he felt the need to send his only son 2000years ago to save man kind but has more or less been happy with the last 2000 years of human history. While I respect others views and beliefs I'm affraid this "Did the Creator have the right to exercise universal sovereignty over his Creation or could they rule themselves without his guidance?" arguement doesn't cut it with me as its contradicory in its nature. If you believe in God and in Jesus as the son of God then that was direct intervention and a statement that as creator he did have the right of universal control, that he hasn't chosen to excerise that right in 2000 years since you can't claim its because he doesn't have the right of intervention. You are concluding that God at no time will intervene just because he hasn't so far.... that is not true....Jesus's disciples specifically asked Jesus the time that God would take action and intervene..and he gave his answers in Mathew Chapter 24. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeevilla Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 ot true. There is no controversy in the scientific community over the theory of evolution. Sorry it is exactly what it says on the box...a theory! If you choose to believe it is a fact then it is your choice... We had a huge discussion about Evolution V Creation a couple of years ago and there are scientific holes in the theory of Evolution as I see it...you may feel different..that is your choice. The house I live in had a designer an architect, a builder a maker.. You would laugh at me if I suggested otherwise. Yet I look at a beautiful flower in my garden and am expected to accept it had no designer, no creator it just happened as part of the natural order according to the theory of Evolution, put forward by fellow humans. Beleif in a Creator of the natural laws that govern our Universe and of the creations that lie within that Universe are in my book scientific... Free will does not contradict there being a Creator as I've tried to explain in previous posts. As I've stated on numerous occasions in this thread it is up to each of us to make up our own minds. Sorry but all you're demonstrating here Julie is that you don't understand evolution. Evolution is fact - the theory of evolution explains the mechanics of how it happens. There is not serious scientific argument over whether evolution happens or not. So it's not "just a theory". This is a very basic misunderstanding. Do you also think that gravity is "just a theory"? I thought you said you had studied evolution. Can you expand on what the "scientific holes" are and why they bring evolution into question? Your house was made by humans, which evolved, as did the flowers in your garden. The theory of evolution explains why the flowers you see in your garden look like they do. If you believe they were created the way they appear in your garden today, then you're ignoring observable reality. Sorry, but belief in something that can't be tested (a creator) is not scientific, even if it is in your book. You will need to expand on your explanation of free will as I can't remember what you said previously. If free will does exist as a concept it means that god is not omniscient - do you accept that? Enjoying the debate by the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeevilla Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 If you want to get better eye's how do you go about doing that? That is to say, human eyes could be better, there are animals around today that have better eyesight than us. So if you want that, can you tell you're body to do it? Can you say, Hey, when I have a baby, hes going to have slightly better eyes than me. Or, do you have no control over wither your eye decides its good enough or not? Is it the eye itself that decided it wants to change next time around, without you're consent? Now surely that eye cannot think for itself? Or the cells in the eye, they don't even know that they are part of an eye do they? Anyone see what I'm getting at? Nope. I think you have evolution confused with X-men. ? Evolution. According to people that don't believe in a God, our body's think for themselves in how they want to change. Certainly no-one in history has claimed they had a kid different to themselves because they decided evolution needing a little push. Couldn't "evolution" be the work of God? You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Forgive me, but this is what often gets my goat about people who question the theory of evolution - they have absolutely no knowledge of it yet they are convinced it's wrong. And they make no effort to educate themselves - preferring to remain ignorant (probably because they know it's incompatible with bronze age belief systems). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondaken Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 If you want to get better eye's how do you go about doing that? That is to say, human eyes could be better, there are animals around today that have better eyesight than us. So if you want that, can you tell you're body to do it? Can you say, Hey, when I have a baby, hes going to have slightly better eyes than me. Or, do you have no control over wither your eye decides its good enough or not? Is it the eye itself that decided it wants to change next time around, without you're consent? Now surely that eye cannot think for itself? Or the cells in the eye, they don't even know that they are part of an eye do they? Anyone see what I'm getting at? Nope. I think you have evolution confused with X-men. ? Evolution. According to people that don't believe in a God, our body's think for themselves in how they want to change. Certainly no-one in history has claimed they had a kid different to themselves because they decided evolution needing a little push. Couldn't "evolution" be the work of God? You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Forgive me, but this is what often gets my goat about people who question the theory of evolution - they have absolutely no knowledge of it yet they are convinced it's wrong. And they make no effort to educate themselves - preferring to remain ignorant (probably because they know it's incompatible with bronze age belief systems). Right well Ive made about 30 posts on the subject of God, and all you can say is "You have no idea about evolution and I'm not going to explain it" How does our body decide to change? Or are you just going to go ahead and call me an ignoramus and ignore the question? Edit: Not sure If I made myself clear, I do know the theory of Evolution ive discussed it many times, but the fact is, what makes things change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondaken Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Evolution. According to people that don't believe in a God, our body's think for themselves in how they want to change. Certainly no-one in history has claimed they had a kid different to themselves because they decided evolution needing a little push. Couldn't "evolution" be the work of God? That is not the theory of evolution at all mate. It basically goes like this. Everything mutates all the time. Whether that mutation is blue eyes or ginger hair or stronger teeth or whatever. Some mutations (ie, stronger teeth) might lead to an animal being more successful. These more successful animals are more likely to survive and breed and spread their genes, which leads to their offspring being more like them. This continues over millions of years and different species arrive as a result. Its been proven to a certain extent, take a look at the world of pedigree dog breeding. And there is proof of this? And pedigree dog breeding is something Man is doing. What causes these mutations? Are we all just successful mutations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted February 19, 2009 VT Supporter Share Posted February 19, 2009 How does our body decide to change? Or are you just going to go ahead and call me an ignoramus and ignore the question? Random mutations of genes when replicating. Most of the time they just clone themselves perfectly. Every now and again they make a 'mistake' and mutate. Sometimes it results in a 'runaway' growth (cancer) sometimes it results in something that is non-viable (dies). Sometimes it results in a slight enhancement, but always there's a slight change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondaken Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 How does our body decide to change? Or are you just going to go ahead and call me an ignoramus and ignore the question? Random mutations of genes when replicating. Most of the time they just clone themselves perfectly. Every now and again they make a 'mistake' and mutate. Sometimes it results in a 'runaway' growth (cancer) sometimes it results in something that is non-viable (dies). Sometimes it results in a slight enhancement, but always there's a slight change. Yes I understand that we change, but why? There must be something that "decides" it wants to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted February 19, 2009 Administrator Share Posted February 19, 2009 That's a strange question. Who decides which slot the roulette ball ends up in? No-one, it's random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Are we all just successful mutations? Thats pretty much it as all the unsuccessful mutations are less likely to live long enough to breed and make more unsuccessful mutations. The dog breeding example is valid, we make new breeds of dog this way (plants and other animals too). With an overseer (i.e. us) it is a much faster more accurate process than in nature, we pick the right dogs for the qualities we want and breed them together getting a new stronger, faster (or whatever we want) type of dog. If there is no one to control the process as in nature it is a far slower more inprecise process taking millions of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondaken Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Its not random. It depends on how fast you spun the table, the shape of the ball, the shape of the table (as none of these can be made "perfect") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted February 19, 2009 VT Supporter Share Posted February 19, 2009 What causes these mutations? Are we all just successful mutations? Yes. But I refer you (and non goddies) to my previous post that appealing to science to explain things is somewhat missing the point. One has to appeal to the heart and offer reassurance acceptance and love. I reckon I'd be a really good Christian if I didn't have to believe in God and all those ridiculous 'miracles'. Most of the rest is spot on as a guide to living my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I'm a non believer yet fasinated in the subject largelly in a historical context. One question I always have for believers is if you believe Jesus was the son of God and that he will return why did he choose that point in human history and why did he choose that place to appear? If at that time God sent his son because he thought that mankind needed saving has he not returned or sent another messenger in 2000 years despite man kinds deprevity sinking to far greater lows in the last 2000 years. Why not send an envoy when the world twice tore itself apart killing millions in the process? why not step in when we started dropping atomic bombs? I just don't understand the logic in the belief he felt the need to send his only son 2000years ago to save man kind but has more or less been happy with the last 2000 years of human history. While I respect others views and beliefs I'm affraid this "Did the Creator have the right to exercise universal sovereignty over his Creation or could they rule themselves without his guidance?" arguement doesn't cut it with me as its contradicory in its nature. If you believe in God and in Jesus as the son of God then that was direct intervention and a statement that as creator he did have the right of universal control, that he hasn't chosen to excerise that right in 2000 years since you can't claim its because he doesn't have the right of intervention. Excuse me quoting myself but Julie think you might have missed this post and I'm interested in knowing your thoughts on this. I think I was composing the response when you sent this!..lol give us chance...I am trying to do some work as well! I have tried to answer your points on the previous page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 That's a strange question. Who decides which slot the roulette ball ends up in? No-one, it's random. There is no such thing as "random" in terms of the universe. There is always a reason something happens. The roulette bell ends up in the slot it did because of the gravety on it, the spin on the wheel, the wind resistance etc. Nothing is "random", there are explinations for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 True, but there is more than only Holy book. One of the reasons I jumped from Christianity to Islam was all of the holes that can be picked in the Bible. Yes, I can see how believing that an entity powerful enough to create the universe is bothered if you eat pork or not would make more sense than the other brand of fairy tales. But the choran doesn't say that, does it? I think I've heard that loads of times, anyway. It says it. Again, its a question of faith. Risso clearly doesnt believe in it, and thats his prerogative where as I do, which is mine. You can break anything down to look stupid if you want though. Im sure you love football. How many times has your missus asked how the hell you can enjoy watching 22 men running around after a bag of air for an hour and a half? Ok, my bad then. I've heard so many theories on why it's not allowed to eat pork in islam so I guess that's the reason I thought it actually never said that. My friends tunisian husband says it's because 20% of hte meat from pigs is bad and you never know which part it is. That's a bit too random for me and was one of the reasons I believed that. And I guess I've mixed it up with something else that is more of the culture in the middle east than a law in the choran. The thing about women to wear those things to hide their faces, might that be the one I'm thinking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 The Hijab? A bit of both. Its more of a cultural thing though, and it drifts in and out of fashion. If you look at photos of a big city in an Islamic country, say Cairo in Egypt for arguments sake from 30-40 years ago (ie, the 1970's) then you will find hardly any women are wearing them. They nearly all are today. The only real obligation is to dress modestly, and pretty much all European clothing is perfectly fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Sorry but all you're demonstrating here Julie is that you don't understand evolution. Yeah but with all due respect..I could argue the same... I could say Dundee Villa ..YOU haven't studied the Bible enough, therefore YOU don't understand it's not a book of fiction..Works both ways! You will need to expand on your explanation of free will as I can't remember what you said previously. If free will does exist as a concept it means that god is not omniscient - do you accept that? God can and sometimes chooses to intervene on specific occasions. However what I was saying is that God gave mankind a free hand to rule himself in order for the question of whether he had the right to expect them to live by his guidelines. If you just track back a couple of pages I did answer this I think as I don't want to re-quote myself again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 And I guess I've mixed it up with something else that is more of the culture in the middle east than a law in the choran. The thing about women to wear those things to hide their faces, might that be the one I'm thinking about? That is my understanding also, although I am no expert on the quran. I understood that it instructed women to dress in a respectful way and different cultures have interprited it in different ways from just a scalf to a full body covering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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