lapal_fan Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Tinker for PM think of the headlines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 would someone give a decent answer as to how we get out of it? you just wait for the natural cycle of boom and bust to come around again and hope that an incompetent labour PM doesn't spunk the "boom" up against the wall next time around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 So whilst I've heard alot of blaming going on in this place, would someone give a decent answer as to how we get out of it? or does noone know, hence why the PM doesn't know, hence why noone - even economists - dont even know? Plenty of people know, including some economists. Here's a couple of things for starters. NEF pamphlet. Suggestions for reforming the monetary system. A recent paper. Cutting public spending in a balance sheet recession is madness. Galbraith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Do away with the Royal Family to start, why on earth do they get millions off the taxpayer ?? use their assets to clear some of the nations debt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Do away with the Royal Family to start, why on earth do they get millions off the taxpayer ?? use their assets to clear some of the nations debt The royal family are not a problem in money terms, though they are in many other ways. The (public) debt is not a problem either. Neither is the deficit. You are being seriously, criminally, misled. Private debt is the real problem, but we hear little about that, and when the boy Cameron tried to speak about it, he was immediately slapped down and retracted his speech even before he had made it. That he complied suggests that he is either inept or ignorant, despite the faint glimmer of hope shown in his draft speech before the censors whipped him into line. He does what he's told, and while he does, he keeps his position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishVillan Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 And right after the US market closed, Fitch downgraded the rating of alot of big banks to negative. Bank of America, Barclays, BNP, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and SocGen. Friday could get...Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyjsg Posted October 13, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted October 13, 2011 The royal family are not a problem in money terms, though they are in many other ways. The (public) debt is not a problem either. Neither is the deficit. You are being seriously, criminally, misled. Private debt is the real problem, but we hear little about that, and when the boy Cameron tried to speak about it, he was immediately slapped down and retracted his speech even before he had made it. That he complied suggests that he is either inept or ignorant, despite the faint glimmer of hope shown in his draft speech before the censors whipped him into line. He does what he's told, and while he does, he keeps his position. I think the royal family makes far more money for this country than they spend, I think too many people are too busy sticking it to the toffs to realise this. As for the bit about private debt, I suggested this a few pages back and it was swiped away because people wouldn't be spending money and as our economy is reliant on this spending it would stop froth blah blah blah. Point is the money they are spending is not real, it's just more debt or just holding the debt. At best it's just moving debt around. Surely if like myself people clear their debt, there would be more real money in the system and people would have more disposable cash because they are not paying 39.9% on their credit card. I think people having to live up to reality of the money they spent in the past rather than taking the easy IVA way out and actually paying their money back would make the economy a much stronger place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 As for the bit about private debt, I suggested this a few pages back and it was swiped away because people wouldn't be spending money and as our economy is reliant on this spending it would stop froth blah blah blah... I thought Peter responded by pointing you in the direction of the paradox of thrift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIW Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Personal debt is what banks and the High St thrive on theough so that won't be tackled. Plus how do you do it retrospectively? you don't giver out mortgages? then the banks stop lending, which affects businesses which are needed to stimulate growth. the housing market grinds to a halt. How dfo we get out of it? Well we ned to stimulate growth somewhere somehow. Mind you we can start by scrapping trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyjsg Posted October 14, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted October 14, 2011 As for the bit about private debt, I suggested this a few pages back and it was swiped away because people wouldn't be spending money and as our economy is reliant on this spending it would stop froth blah blah blah... I thought Peter responded by pointing you in the direction of the paradox of thrift? Yes but I didnt say that money should be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Other than my mortgage, I don't have any debt. No credit cards, no loans for cards or holidays, no store cards. If I want something, I either wait until I can afford it, or go without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Yes but I didnt say that money should be saved. What difference is there between paying down debt and increasing saving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 As for the bit about private debt, I suggested this a few pages back and it was swiped away because people wouldn't be spending money and as our economy is reliant on this spending it would stop froth blah blah blah... I thought Peter responded by pointing you in the direction of the paradox of thrift? Yes but I didnt say that money should be saved. Repaying debt is saving, in effect. When economists refer to the private sector "net saving", they describe situations like the present, when people are repaying debt. It doesn't mean that what people think of as their savings are increasing. If the private sector is net saving, it follows that the public sector is in deficit (leaving aside the unusual situation where there is a balance of trade surplus massive enough to cancel out both the private and public sides). If the private sector net saves, and the government tries to reduce the public sector deficit, the consequence is severely reduced demand, increasing unemployment, and recession. Which is what we have, and which was entirely predictable and was predicted. It remains the case that a system based on pretty well everyone being in debt, which is what we have now, is great news for financiers, but unsustainable and guaranteed to result in periodic crashes and disasters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Other than my mortgage, I don't have any debt. No credit cards, no loans for cards or holidays, no store cards. If I want something, I either wait until I can afford it, or go without. Same here apart from Credit Card, I have one but zero it every single month without fail as it's useful for internet buying and stuff. I find the fact I have a mortgage distasteful in the extreme but I can't get rid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Other than my mortgage, I don't have any debt. No credit cards, no loans for cards or holidays, no store cards. If I want something, I either wait until I can afford it, or go without. That used to be the prevailing culture, but it's pretty unusual now. Debt used to be seen as a big thing, a problem, something to be avoided. Now it's more likely to be seen as inevitable, necessary, the normal state of affairs. People are conditioned to get into unsupportable debt in order to overconsume. It's just not sustainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I have a friend who is Financial Director at a huge company and he lives on a debt culture he will take out one loan and then and then take out a bigger one months / years later and use it to pay off the balance on the other one , he swears by it personally I wouldn't let him anywhere near my company :-) but saying that , this process is exactly what Al Fayed does (but on a larger scale) , he trades on his name and potential equity , borrows £10m and when the debt is called in borrows £15m from elsewhere and pays back the £10m ..least that was according to private eye a few years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIW Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Welcome to a consumerist, capitalist society. Any of you that vote in any election is given tacit acceptance to the current state of affairs. You don't like try and do something different to change it. Either work within the system to change it entirely, or look for a different way altogether. At the moment all we hear is more of the same but witha different name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted October 14, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted October 14, 2011 Other than my mortgage, I don't have any debt. No credit cards, no loans for cards or holidays, no store cards. If I want something, I either wait until I can afford it, or go without. Same here apart from Credit Card, I have one but zero it every single month without fail as it's useful for internet buying and stuff.This for me, too. And the mortgage gets paid off next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 And the mortgage gets paid off next year. out of interest and without delving into peoples financial affairs ... would you then be tempted to take out a loan and give yourself a lump sum that you could spend on something like a car /holiday / extension /millions of books :winkold: and pay back over say 5 years ... or would you save what was the mortgage money each month and spend it on something you desire once you have built up the funds ? or indeed just save it for a rainy day ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I don't think I was able to avoid debt. In order to go to Uni I had to get a student loan to cover Tuition Fees. My loan covered Tuition fees and most of my accomodation but not all. So I had to get part time job during holidays to pay the rest of my accomodation and to live off. The money from the part time job was not enough to live off so I had to use my student overdraft. Now I had to do this every year and I ended up with a student loan of £12k and overdrafts of £3k. I was screwed to begin with. Since then I have accumulated more debt but paid some off. I hope to be debt free by this time next year. The ironic thing is that I want to be debt free so that I can begin to save for a mortgage. What a **** up world we live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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