Income Tax

[ender4]

Without getting into a political debate, just wondered what people's thoughts are on the current level of Income Tax +National Insurance.

For clarity and to keep it simple (ignore marginal rates, tapering, child benefit clawback, etc)...

Income Tax + National Insurance:

Up to £12,570 income - 0%

Between £12,570 and £50,000 - 33.25%

Between £50,000 and £150,000 - 43.25%

Above £150,000 - 48.25%

[CVByrne]

I believe income taxes are outdated and we should be taxing wealth and lowering taxes on income. 

[OutByEaster?]

The problem for me doesn't come in the setting of rates, it comes in their collection.

Those higher up the scale don't earn money that's taxed, they run it all through companies and accountant's and come out with a salary of £40k a year, a £700k loss and a million pound car.

If we can find a way to make sure that we're as keen to collect the tax of those that earn £1.5m a year as we are for those that earn £15k a year it'll be a very good start.

The laws, not the levels are the issue.

If the measure of a successful democracy is in how proud its citizens are to pay the tax that buys the things they voted for, then we're in a big hole when people are actually encouraged to believe that paying any tax at all is a horrible and painful thing.

[CVByrne]

33 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

The problem for me doesn't come in the setting of rates, it comes in their collection.

Those higher up the scale don't earn money that's taxed, they run it all through companies and accountant's and come out with a salary of £40k a year, a £700k loss and a million pound car.

If we can find a way to make sure that we're as keen to collect the tax of those that earn £1.5m a year as we are for those that earn £15k a year it'll be a very good start.

The laws, not the levels are the issue.

If the measure of a successful democracy is in how proud its citizens are to pay the tax that buys the things they voted for, then we're in a big hole when people are actually encouraged to believe that paying any tax at all is a horrible and painful thing.

The issue is the concentration of wealth. Finding ways to avoid paying tax on that. So for example, stock buybacks are preferred to Dividends because Dividends are income taxed at high rates of tax. 

If we had higher inheritance taxes we could stop the concentration of wealth through generations.

If we simply taxed wealth then we could tax people for owning multiple homes and for their stock portfolios 8-10% growth year over year etc. Capital gains taxes don't work because they never sell these assets just accumulate them. They then use the assets as collateral to secure low interest lines of credit to spend, so these are considered debt. 

So they essentially see their wealth grow and then they can spend against that wealth accumulation with lines of credit. All tax free. Inflation erodes the value of the money the owe while their assets grow in value rapidly.

That wealth is growing year over year and the wealth gap between the rich and the rest of us grows. The wealth needs to be taxed. It's as simple as that. There is no more scope in taxing people income more. 

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

The issue is the concentration of wealth. Finding ways to avoid paying tax on that. So for example, stock buybacks are preferred to Dividends because Dividends are income taxed at high rates of tax. 

If we had higher inheritance taxes we could stop the concentration of wealth through generations.

If we simply taxed wealth then we could tax people for owning multiple homes and for their stock portfolios 8-10% growth year over year etc. Capital gains taxes don't work because they never sell these assets just accumulate them. They then use the assets as collateral to secure low interest lines of credit to spend, so these are considered debt. 

So they essentially see their wealth grow and then they can spend against that wealth accumulation with lines of credit. All tax free. Inflation erodes the value of the money the owe while their assets grow in value rapidly.

That wealth is growing year over year and the wealth gap between the rich and the rest of us grows. The wealth needs to be taxed. It's as simple as that. There is no more scope in taxing people income more. 

I must admit im not  afan of inheritance tax to be honest mate. I find that abit of a unfair tax

[Stevo985]

I think "increasing income tax" is too much of a blanket statement. I'd happily see SOME income tax increased. And some decreased

[ender4]

10 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

 I'd happily see SOME income tax increased. And some decreased

Which bits?

[Genie]

1 minute ago, ender4 said:

Which bits?

Other peoples income tax INCREASED

Personal income tax DECREASED

 

[Stevo985]

4 minutes ago, ender4 said:

Which bits?

Haha. Increase the tax on high earners, basically. And I'd include the band I fall into on that

[StefanAVFC]

I know I can't really comment as I don't earn in the UK, but I voted as if I was living and earning there.

In Poland, income tax is very low.

2 brackets.

Up to 85000 (15000 GBP)  - 17%

Above 127000 (23000 GBP) - 32%

Between 0-17% you get a rebate, and the same between 17% and 32%.

[Sam-AVFC]

2 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

I must admit im not  afan of inheritance tax to be honest mate. I find that abit of a unfair tax

I find it unfair that some people are born with £100s of millions of low taxed trust and untouched 'farm' wealth passed down from a lucky Norman knight.

People need to realise many already pay way more in inheritance tax than the super wealthy. It's that kind of obscene wealth hidden behind complex legal entities that many believe should be targeted, not grandma's 4 bed semi.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Sam-AVFC

[ender4]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

I know I can't really comment as I don't earn in the UK, but I voted as if I was living and earning there.

In Poland, income tax is very low.

2 brackets.

Up to 85000 (15000 GBP)  - 17%

Above 127000 (23000 GBP) - 32%

Between 0-17% you get a rebate, and the same between 17% and 32%.

That does seem very low compared to Western European tax levels.  Does that provide enough revenue for the government to spend on what public services are required?

[lapal_fan]

As long as I think it's being spent well, I don't mind paying tax, or more tax.

Increasing taxes due to stupid decisions, a lack of honesty about future policy payment structures and a general view of "things aren't what they used to be in my own eye" (such as NHS, road surfaces, beautification etc) means I'd be annoyed, because I know I'd be paying for some dumb shit the Tories have given billions to their mates. 

 

[El Zen]

2 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

I must admit im not  afan of inheritance tax to be honest mate. I find that abit of a unfair tax

I personally think it’s the fairest tax by some distance. 

On income tax, I’m generally in favour of extremely progressive tax rates. High incomes can be taxed higher, low incomes can be taxed lower (I’m making a general comment here, as my knowledge of UK income tax rates isn’t very extensive.) 

However, I also agree with @CVByrne that finding ways to tax wealth harder is more important than increasing income tax for high wages. The very rich and the real drivers of inequality don’t earn wages. They own shit. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by El Zen

[CVByrne]

6 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Haha. Increase the tax on high earners, basically. And I'd include the band I fall into on that

So the actual proper rich people can stay avoiding taxation entirely because they don't pay income tax. 

[Genie]

5 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

I find it unfair that some people are born with £100s of millions of low taxed trust and untouched 'farm' wealth passed down from a lucky Norman knight.

People need to realise many already pay way more in inheritance tax than the super wealthy. It's that kind of obscene wealth hidden behind complex legal entities that many believe should be targeted, not grandma's 4 bed semi.

Grandma’s 4 bed semi is the only 1 that’ll get caught, the other huge wealth will remain untouchable.

[CVByrne]

2 minutes ago, Genie said:

Grandma’s 4 bed semi is the only 1 that’ll get caught, the other huge wealth will remain untouchable.

We can freeze Russian Oligarchs assets quite quickly and rapidly. So we know where peoples assets are, so we can tax wealth. We should have higher inheritance taxes too because they're the most fair. People should all earn their own way in life and not be handed money and wealth amassed by others. Even if those people were their parents or grandparents. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

Decrease tax. Increase public expenditure. 

I am a Civil Servant.  The Government and the Civil Service combine to waste ridulous amounts of money.  

The Government introduces flawed policies.  The Civil Service then implements them badly.  

I see this every day.

[Stevo985]

8 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

So the actual proper rich people can stay avoiding taxation entirely because they don't pay income tax. 

My suggestion wasn't mutually exclusive of other ways of taxing wealth

[StefanAVFC]

20 minutes ago, ender4 said:

That does seem very low compared to Western European tax levels.  Does that provide enough revenue for the government to spend on what public services are required?

We have socialised healthcare, but a far less robust benefit system. The big one over here is the magic money tree ramped up to the max.

Miners get full salary until they die after 20 years working.

Pensioners get 15 months of pension instead of 12. Miners the same.

500 PLN per month per kid, on top of usual benefits.

It's the main reason we hit 15% inflation this week.