Jas10 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 18 minutes ago, TRO said: didn't against Bolton....maybe he's learning or Critchley is getting to grips with the new job. Very much hope so, that first half was absolutely dire but encouraging that we managed to sort ourselves out for the second. Much bigger tests to come, hoping for positive results and performances. I want to enjoy watching my football club again… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 17 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Doesn't make much sense when under one of those managers we had the most success we've had in over a decade. Again, we seem to pretend that things have constantly been bad and Gerrard has inherited a club that's achieved nothing but negativity over the last few years Are you trying to lead me down the same old tedious track? If we had a manager, with the best record in over a decade ( which lets be fair the period was not exactly anything to write home about) The current owners would be savvy enough to still have him there. If Gerrard proves to be ultimately the wrong choice, that does not right (the so called wrong according to you,) of replacing the last manager. Gerrards results record is no better than the manager he replaced, fact...... so, so far it isn't looking like the smartest move, granted.......but one has had 9 months, the other over 3 years......so I guess the word established springs to mind......The board will establish, when it's time for him to go or stay. In the meantime, we can keep "barking at the moon" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 17 minutes ago, TRO said: That's sheer intransigence and proves nothing......when I have explained my position, which is not the one, you are barking at the moon at. I am backing SG to turn it around.....That is not the same as backing him unconditionally, surely you can comprehend that. That’s fine as long as you can allow and tolerate the comments from those who no longer back or believe in him - we have our valid reasons too. No one should be forcing their opinion on anyone else but should be free to express it. We don’t have to try and force the other person to agree with us. Ultimately, we all want to see our club succeed… we just see things differently. I just want us to get better asap, however it happens. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DCJonah Posted August 25, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 25, 2022 6 minutes ago, TRO said: Are you trying to lead me down the same old tedious track? If we had a manager, with the best record in over a decade ( which lets be fair the period was not exactly anything to write home about) The current owners would be savvy enough to still have him there. If Gerrard proves to be ultimately the wrong choice, that does not right (the so called wrong according to you,) of replacing the last manager. Gerrards results record is no better than the manager he replaced, fact...... so, so far it isn't looking like the smartest move, granted.......but one has had 9 months, the other over 3 years......so I guess the word established springs to mind......The board will establish, when it's time for him to go or stay. In the meantime, we can keep "barking at the moon" Forget the sacking of Dean Smith. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about this idea that everything has been shit and Gerrard is just another manager incapable of doing anything. It wasn't. The positivity round the club these last few years has been better than anything since MON walked out the door. Gerrard inherited a club that had been on the up suffering a blip. He didn't inherit the titanic. 13 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 19 minutes ago, Jas10 said: That’s fine as long as you can allow and tolerate the comments from those who no longer back or believe in him - we have our valid reasons too. No one should be forcing their opinion on anyone else but should be free to express it. We don’t have to try and force the other person to agree with us. Ultimately, we all want to see our club succeed… we just see things differently. I just want us to get better asap, however it happens. I have never set out to force my opinions on anyone else....That is totally contrary to my intentions. and facts should be separated from opinions. However, If someone, pursues a falsehood, or peddles a speculative opinion, not to be challenged, I feel at liberty to say so. I believe Jas, that if folk are intent to shifting people out of a job, speculation should be abandoned and facts employed. It is not a fact, That SG is doing a shit job, that's opinion.......It is a fact he is presiding over the team doing a shit job, Fact.....There is a subtle, difference, just the same as Arteta's position was explained. Jumping to conclusions after bad games, is too early, time will establish the facts. The only people right now, to be in a position of knowing exactly what is going on is the hierarchy at the club.....they must reserve the right to manage, and act upon the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 1 minute ago, TRO said: I have never set out to force my opinions on anyone else....That is totally contrary to my intentions. and facts should be separated from opinions. However, If someone, pursues a falsehood, or peddles a speculative opinion, not to be challenged, I feel at liberty to say so. I believe Jas, that if folk are intent to shifting people out of a job, speculation should be abandoned and facts employed. It is not a fact, That SG is doing a shit job, that's opinion.......It is a fact he is presiding over the team doing a shit job, Fact.....There is a subtle, difference, just the same as Arteta's position was explained. Jumping to conclusions after bad games, is too early, time will establish the facts. The only people right now, to be in a position of knowing exactly what is going on is the hierarchy at the club.....they must reserve the right to manage, and act upon the facts. Was a general statement mate, applies to all and works both ways. Please don’t take it personally. Those wanting him gone shouldn’t be forcing others to take up that view, those backing him shouldn’t force others to do so either. But we should be free to say how we feel and what we are thinking without any trepidation… Some people feel that individuals are deflecting blame away from the manager and clutching at straws, others feel that individuals are being too harsh on the manager. These are just differences of opinion but the fact that we are struggling us understandably affecting individuals’ emotional states and causing anger and frustration. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsky_11 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: So you reckon stick with Gerrard until the World Cup break at least ? I figure this will be the case either way, unless we are well below 1ppg after say 10 games. 20+ points by winter break and he'll be fine. Purely from looking at the records of our PL era managers, Gerrard by comparison would definitely look hard done by to be sacked today. He could definitely fall into a position where that wouldn't be the case, though it would take a pretty terrible run over the next 5-10 games to get there. For example, McLeish had 38 point from 38 games having taken over a team that finished 9th the previous season. Gerrard would need to lose the next 8 games straight to match that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 38 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said: In the short term (5 or 10 games), most managers saw an improvement over predecessor, which I guess would be expect given likely reason for manager being replaced would be poor form. Taylor replacing Gregory and Houllier replacing O'Neill unsurprisingly coming out worst in this given who they were replacing. McLeish and O'Leary only others who didn't improve over 5 or 10 game comparison to predecessor. In the longer term, less that half the manager's improved on predecessor over 30 game preriod. Gerrard is tied 1st with Gregory for improvement over 5 game comparison, falls to 6th for 10 and longer 30 game comparison so slightly above average. In terms of straightforward comparison of these 15 manager's final games, Gerrard's recent form doesn't look so bad by comparison, ranking joint 7th over last 5 games, joint 3rd over 10 and 4th over 30. The only two managers with better final 10 game form left for reasons other than results, while he's tied with Bruce and Gregory, the former with much higher expectations in a lower tier, while the latter resigned after frequent fall outs with Ellis. (Note: figures highlighted yellow are using entire tenure for comparison where it does not equal or exceeed 30 games) (Another note: all the above data is for regular season league games only so ignores Bruce and Smith's playoff fixtures. ) (Final note: Also ignored are six separate caretaker stints, which over 19 games brought 20 points in total. Biggest impact of including these would likely be to make McLeish look worse due to McAllister's 1.6ppg from 5 games, and Di Matteo better following Eric Black's 1 point from 7 games) @Tomasky Thank you for publishing thus and putting the effort in. It is interesting as my reading of it shows there is merit in giving Gerrard more time to prove himself or fail, whichever it may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsky_11 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 13 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Gerrard inherited a club that had been on the up suffering a blip. He didn't inherit the titanic. I guess there's the question of how much of that up was down to Smith/Grealish combo and how big a "blip" them leaving was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 6 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Forget the sacking of Dean Smith. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about this idea that everything has been shit and Gerrard is just another manager incapable of doing anything. It wasn't. The positivity round the club these last few years has been better than anything since MON walked out the door. Gerrard inherited a club that had been on the up suffering a blip. He didn't inherit the titanic. who said he did......and who said, he isn't responsible for the regress, from 2021. We gained promotion through the play offs, and a penalty shoot out saved us in the semi's, from a fringe goalkeeper......great, but lets get some perspective here. Our Premier league form since arriving has been patchy at best, (and since we lost our go to player, who baby sat the team, with regards to keeping the ball) we have clearly found consistency a bridge too far. It is folly, to call the games prior to SG's appointment as a blip......it was a clear indication of the " easy to play against " tag, which has beset us......In fact SG presided over the self same 4 games at the back end of the season and finished in the same results , losses. right now, SG is doing no better than DS, I am not presenting that argument.....What I am saying is, The management will stick or twist, when they think the facts dictate their move.....right now, work is going on with the new coach and players, and I suspect, they will watch with interest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsky_11 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: @Tomasky Thank you for publishing thus and putting the effort in. It is interesting as my reading of it shows there is merit in giving Gerrard more time to prove himself or fail, whichever it may be. No worries. Yeah, the Atkinson first 30 which isn't in the data but I mentioned elsewhere seemed like a good comparison as well, though I'm only old enough to remember his last couple of seasons, so other's will be able to add more context to the results. But only 3 points more than Gerrard and right in the middle of a much worse run of results than anything we've seen under Gerrard. Went on to finish 7th that season and 2nd the season after. Got the impression from what other have said that this might have been down to the attacking side of our game finally clicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 Just now, tomsky_11 said: No worries. Yeah, the Atkinson first 30 which isn't in the data but I mentioned elsewhere seemed like a good comparison as well, though I'm only old enough to remember his last couple of seasons, so other's will be able to add more context to the results. But only 3 points more than Gerrard and right in the middle of a much worse run of results than anything we've seen under Gerrard. Went on to finish 7th that season and 2nd the season after. Got the impression from what other have said that this might have been down to the attacking side of our game finally clicking. If u aren't old enough to remember Atkinson then u wont remember Alex Ferguson's start at United. He was within days of getting the sack and only a 1-0 win at Forest in the FA cup saved his bacon. The rest is history. I think the difficult part of getting a new manager in to a club is going to be the first 6 months to a year. Lots of change etc and the club hurts during this process (as suggested by the data u published). I just fear that we have gone through the difficult time and are close to starting to reap the rewards and if we sack SG now we would just be back at square 1. I don't know if SG will work out, when he was first linked with Villa I did not want him as manager. But we knew we were getting a rookie and it doesn't take a genius to anticipate he may need time so I expect the club will stand by him a bit longer to see if he can actually make the grade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 25, 2022 Moderator Share Posted August 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Peter Griffin said: It is interesting as my reading of it shows there is merit in giving Gerrard more time to prove himself or fail, whichever it may be. I think fans and owners have different levels on which we judge managers. I think there has to be far less emotion in owner decisions. For example if you (anyone) looks in a match thread there are all kinds of “get shot now” angry calls if we lose a game. Owners can’t work like that and expect success. They invest heavily in managerial wages, players the manager wants and all the rest, so they can’t boot someone based on post match emotions. I guess they’ll feel Gerrard met the aim of avoiding relegation last season, but didn’t do much more. But they’ll believe that bought him time for this season. Now I thought the appointment was high risk at the time and so far it looks like that’s true. But the board can’t have been unaware of the risks either. They’ll have expected a learning period and mistakes and so on. That’s what we’ve seen. The flip side of course is that with the investment the club puts into a manager, they’ll absolutely expect a return on that. So far there’s little, if any, sign of that being achieved. There have been intermittent spells of good play, but they’re quite sparse, in between a lot of disorganised, shambolic play, with players looking like they don’t believe in what they’re being asked to do by the manager and coaches. And that’s a major worry. He will get more time and like you say there’s some statistical justification for doing so, but he has to start delivering better results and performances or the board’s expectations not being met will align with the fans disenchantment with what’s put in front of us and at that point he’s toast. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsky_11 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Peter Griffin said: I don't know if SG will work out, when he was first linked with Villa I did not want him as manager. I wasn't sure about it either and had thought Smith was hard done by (although it also felt to me like Smith had for a while been moving away from the style that had made me want him at Villa in the first place and so successful early on with us) but was more positive after reading a bit about him and Beale and rest of coaching staff at Rangers. I still think I've seen enough in places to think we'll get better with him over time. There are managers on that list under whom I can remember basically no redeeming performances and there's been plenty of moments where I think we've looked very good under Gerrard. The issues have been it hasn't always been maintained for 90 mins (which tbf has been a problem for a while now going back well before Gerrard) and that there have been some flat out poor performances and decisions in games that seem to contradict early much better showings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 2 hours ago, blandy said: I think fans and owners have different levels on which we judge managers. I think there has to be far less emotion in owner decisions. For example if you (anyone) looks in a match thread there are all kinds of “get shot now” angry calls if we lose a game. Owners can’t work like that and expect success. They invest heavily in managerial wages, players the manager wants and all the rest, so they can’t boot someone based on post match emotions. I guess they’ll feel Gerrard met the aim of avoiding relegation last season, but didn’t do much more. But they’ll believe that bought him time for this season. Now I thought the appointment was high risk at the time and so far it looks like that’s true. But the board can’t have been unaware of the risks either. They’ll have expected a learning period and mistakes and so on. That’s what we’ve seen. The flip side of course is that with the investment the club puts into a manager, they’ll absolutely expect a return on that. So far there’s little, if any, sign of that being achieved. There have been intermittent spells of good play, but they’re quite sparse, in between a lot of disorganised, shambolic play, with players looking like they don’t believe in what they’re being asked to do by the manager and coaches. And that’s a major worry. He will get more time and like you say there’s some statistical justification for doing so, but he has to start delivering better results and performances or the board’s expectations not being met will align with the fans disenchantment with what’s put in front of us and at that point he’s toast. 100% aligned with that, it is exactly what my view on the situation is 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MellbergsBeard Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Jas10 said: Very much hope so, that first half was absolutely dire but encouraging that we managed to sort ourselves out for the second. Much bigger tests to come, hoping for positive results and performances. I want to enjoy watching my football club again… Is it encouraging that a league 1 team tired in the second half against premier league opposition? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jas10 Posted August 25, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 25, 2022 Just now, DCJonah said: The season prior we got 55 pts and nearly broke our premier league clean sheet record. Again, you want to claim that it was nothing but bad things. It wasn't. I think it’s best if we don’t even mention Dean in this thread anymore. I don’t want to see any further disrespect for the man who brought us back to where we belong and repaired all the damage - it was the best time to be a fan in ages, the connection, atmosphere, spirit and pride… good days, good memories… It’s an emotional topic for many of us. I don’t think we would’ve done any worse had we stuck with Dean anyway, if anyone deserved time it was him. I don’t think SG is even half the manager but… it’s gone… it’s done. We have to look forwards, no point dwelling on the past. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 With Dean, thankful for the journey back but he had hit his ceiling with us. Gerrard needs to get that confident play going in the next six games if he’s serious about adapting. A great strength of Dean’s coaching for the most part was how he adapted and learned from mistakes. I think towards the end he grew wildly too inconsistent - relying on deadwood like Tuanzebe or changing the formation every week. I would like Gerrard to trust the players more and play with a less rigid system. Bailey looked transformed when out wide - irrespective of opposition it was the right call to go into the tie with a strong team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: 100% this. Plus a lot of it is the same arguments over and over again. Dean had to go at the time. He did all he could and will always be a Villa legend in my eyes. I’m not sure Smith had to go but I understand why he did go. Seems mad that we replaced him like we did with Gerrard. With everything else at the club including the North Stand redevelopment plans shown today, to pick Gerrard just seems an awfully big risk on one of the key positions at the club and he’s proving through his coaching and inexperience that he’s not the right man for the job and probably never was. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Willard Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 Apparently we have the 4th highest possession in the league and that is with us feeling like we rush possession. We lack so much width in our current formation. I genuinely think we'd be better playing 442 but feel like we are shoe horning Coutinho/Buendia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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