Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Tom13]

4 hours ago, Bazmonkey said:

i have said this before in other chats.

We lack the cutting edge in the final third due to the simple fact we do not move the ball quick enough.  We allow the opposition to set and wait for us...it all most become a stand off.....we wont move until they move...they wont move until we do....its not other teams parking the bus.

Using the liverpool as mentioned above game as example...they move the ball quick to create space and unsettle the opposition back line.

We have done this at times but to often its slow....and the lack of movement also doesn't help.  This is even when our wingers get the ball compared to the oppo...one has space to run at...ours...often have to come back...thus killing the play and having to reset.

Dont get me wrong....at times patient play is good but as all good teams have shown...they stay patient and then attack at pace...we seem to generally be at one pace all game.

If we do have a oppo team that will set easily we need to drag them around...create the space and have that one player who can find that line breaking pass....Teilemens showed this when he came on at Everton....we stated getting in round the back and looking more dangerous in that final third.

Yep! Tielemans is a huge help in moving the ball quickly in dangerous areas.

[CVByrne]

We need to see what Ange is doing with his full backs at Spurs. Moreno and Frimpong would be superb at that kind of under lapping attack. 

We've said it numerous times in here. Emery needs that as our next step in attacking evolution. 

[Tomaszk]

15 hours ago, Bazmonkey said:

i have said this before in other chats.

We lack the cutting edge in the final third due to the simple fact we do not move the ball quick enough.  We allow the opposition to set and wait for us...it all most become a stand off.....we wont move until they move...they wont move until we do....its not other teams parking the bus.

Using the liverpool as mentioned above game as example...they move the ball quick to create space and unsettle the opposition back line.

We have done this at times but to often its slow....and the lack of movement also doesn't help.  This is even when our wingers get the ball compared to the oppo...one has space to run at...ours...often have to come back...thus killing the play and having to reset.

Dont get me wrong....at times patient play is good but as all good teams have shown...they stay patient and then attack at pace...we seem to generally be at one pace all game.

If we do have a oppo team that will set easily we need to drag them around...create the space and have that one player who can find that line breaking pass....Teilemens showed this when he came on at Everton....we stated getting in round the back and looking more dangerous in that final third.

I agree. Sheff U and Everton was maddening watching how slow we were when not leading.

I think we've actually slowed down recently though. Through mental/physical fatigue, whatever, not sure.

Point is, I think we can pull it back as well.

[Anything11]

14 hours ago, CVByrne said:

We need to see what Ange is doing with his full backs at Spurs. Moreno and Frimpong would be superb at that kind of under lapping attack. 

We've said it numerous times in here. Emery needs that as our next step in attacking evolution. 

Don't see it happening - at least right now. He seems to prefer to use them as width.

What I think we need more often is the CMs joining in. Since the recent disruptions with injuries I have noticed more and more a lack of our CMs (mainly Dougie) making a run into the final 3rd. They are stuck shepherding it in an arc around the opposing team. 

I would like to see them join and replace one of the bottom points of the "W" with that player then pushing up to create 4 up front instead of 3 (or 6 instead of 5 if you think of it that way).

[Zatman]

Still think one thing holding us back vs a low block is the lack of long range shooting

Everton and Sheffield United we were a bit too samey/predictable and didn't offer much variation

[TRO]

On 22/01/2024 at 12:51, Bazmonkey said:

i have said this before in other chats.

We lack the cutting edge in the final third due to the simple fact we do not move the ball quick enough.  We allow the opposition to set and wait for us...it all most become a stand off.....we wont move until they move...they wont move until we do....its not other teams parking the bus.

Using the liverpool as mentioned above game as example...they move the ball quick to create space and unsettle the opposition back line.

We have done this at times but to often its slow....and the lack of movement also doesn't help.  This is even when our wingers get the ball compared to the oppo...one has space to run at...ours...often have to come back...thus killing the play and having to reset.

Dont get me wrong....at times patient play is good but as all good teams have shown...they stay patient and then attack at pace...we seem to generally be at one pace all game.

If we do have a oppo team that will set easily we need to drag them around...create the space and have that one player who can find that line breaking pass....Teilemens showed this when he came on at Everton....we stated getting in round the back and looking more dangerous in that final third.

Spot On.

[TRO]

6 hours ago, Anything11 said:

Don't see it happening - at least right now. He seems to prefer to use them as width.

What I think we need more often is the CMs joining in. Since the recent disruptions with injuries I have noticed more and more a lack of our CMs (mainly Dougie) making a run into the final 3rd. They are stuck shepherding it in an arc around the opposing team. 

I would like to see them join and replace one of the bottom points of the "W" with that player then pushing up to create 4 up front instead of 3 (or 6 instead of 5 if you think of it that way).

I think your point has merit....but to do that, 1) you can not lose the ball in possession too easily, and 2) you have to retreat with pace, and shape, when you do.

Caution, is borne out of an inability to believe in the attacking process, meaning your team mates....much of the time, caution is an intrinsic instinct, developed by what you think you can do v can't do.

Teams that attack with verve, and aggression, usually have faith and trust in the players behind them....that's primarily where their belief comes from.

Edited January 23 by TRO

[DJBOB]

Another week and the same problems against the press. Without Pau and certain configurations, we have specific weaknesses that teams are exploiting. 
 
This is not dissimilar from how Liverpool trapped us early on. As Emi passes it to Lenglet, Palmer would sweep in behind to cut off the pass back to Emi and Chelsea would pin us to the weaker side. 
 
Watkins is the hold up player here but the key weakness? Tielemans is not brilliant with his back to the opponent and made a lot of key mistakes in the first half, not showing often enough in the box midfield and tending to be a bit wider than natural. 
 
JJ is so good at this role, McGinn has vastly improved in this role and I’d argue we had a decent run with Zaniolo at LM because of his ability to offer an outlet. 
 
On the other side, we had more room for progression with the Cash/McGinn dynamic but when the opponents marked them tightly, Diaby was the free man but could not link play or hold off his marker consistently. 
 
When we build out the way we do, it puts players on little islands and we always seem to have a weakness when doing so. Dendoncker against United. Tielemans on the left instead of up top where he could drop in between the lines. Diaby in general. 
 
This is what Unai talks about a lot when needing to improve and everyone being able to play this way. Bailey used to have the exact same problems as Diaby whether it was up top or shifted out wide but he has really improved in that area this year linking play. 
 
Hopefully the others can improve at this as well. 

[andym]

Nearly exactly a year ago we lost at home to Leicester, then followed that up with losses to Arsenal and Man City and lots of people were demanding we scrap any idea of trying to play out from the back, the high line etc with 'the players aren't good enough'.

Didn't even take Unai more than a few months beyond that to get us successful at doing it.

All systems have weakness that can be exploited, and can fall down if you have one or two players not on it in a particular game.

But overall we are trending in the right direction. Next big step is being able to consistently deal with teams sitting back against us, will take some time to do that but if Unai and the team carry on as they have been we should get there.

[CVByrne]

I do think Emery has focused the team on defensive structure, especially as we kept conceding first away from home and we then lost composure at 2-0 up in Old Trafford. We've gone tight to keep the game dull and control the crowd in our 3 away games and then been the better side in the 2nd half in all three games. I think he's given the template for improving our away form and draws and nicking 1-0 wins are going to be key to that for us.

We score a lot more goals at home, and have not failed to score at home under Emery. 

Edited January 27 by CVByrne

[DJBOB]

38 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I do think Emery has focused the team on defensive structure, especially as we kept conceding first away from home and we then lost composure at 2-0 up in Old Trafford. We've gone tight to keep the game dull and control the crowd in our 3 away games and then been the better side in the 2nd half in all three games. I think he's given the template for improving our away form and draws and nicking 1-0 wins are going to be key to that for us.

We score a lot more goals at home, and have not failed to score at home under Emery. 

Yes I noticed that too. Emphasis on all of our players on our shape and rigidity. Chelsea hardly could get anything going between the lines. Yes, they got down the flanks every now and then but were met with a Villa wall at the front post and plenty of cover in the cut back area. 
 
 

[nepal_villan]

Don't quite get playing a high line, but then failing to press the other team. Isn't that just a recipe for disaster? Would love to be educated on how this tactic is supposed to work.

[omariqy]

We need to find a way to get McGinn next to Watkins and Diaby out wide imo. 

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, nepal_villan said:

Don't quite get playing a high line, but then failing to press the other team. Isn't that just a recipe for disaster? Would love to be educated on how this tactic is supposed to work.

I wondered this for a while and watched as many of his matches at Villarreal and other clubs as well as his interviews and have only begun to understand it. 
 
It’s important to understand that Unai sets us up out of possession differently than a lot of the high press disciplines that Klopp influenced. Our first remit is to get in shape, do not allow passes through the middle, do not allow opponents to get into rhythm, and force them out wide. More Dyche than Klopp. 
 
Given our out of possession objectives, when we lose the ball, we do not engage in a frantic counter press. Maybe one or two players will make a token effort near the ball but everyone else will rush back into shape. 
  
Once the opponent has the ball, we generally engage them in 3 different phases. 
 
1) 442 diamond shape trigger press - look at the Brighton home win to see this at full effectiveness. When the ball is at the keeper, they wait for the keeper to pass which triggers the press from the strikers. One striker presses the ball and the other sweeps in behind to prevent a switch or pass back to the keeper. Luiz presses high on the CM’s to prevent easy passes in and the wide mid near the ball has to press hard against the fullback. The opposite side wide mid has the responsibility of the other half of the pitch. This is our only true high press scheme designed to trap the opponent on one half of the pitch and force an errant pass to capitalize on. 
 

2) 442 mid block - the objective here is to remain compact and tight, no passes in the block between the two strikers, the two CM’s, and the CB’s. Our wide mids block the half spaces and we stay narrow to force passes wide. Where we differ from our 442’s is that we basically invite teams to try and play over the top, trusting not only our defender’s pace, but also their ability to step up based on the shape of the passer, and of course Emi. 
 
Now - this is probably where people are a touch confused. High line = high press, right? There are a couple of reasonings behind this. One is to stay compact and avoid being overstretched and getting passes in between the lines. The other is to conserve energy and play the long game. You saw how Chelsea tired in their press in the second half.

The third is that there’s some game playing here by Unai. Is it better to force the opponent to a certain way of playing, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of playing that way? What I’ve noticed is that teams rarely cut us open with sweeping passing moves with tiki taka because of this mid block. It’s all very punt and run, a dangerous game but predictable and prevents the opponent from getting into a rhythm. 
 
3) 532 or 541 - usually with the lead or when we’re under the kosh. Kamara tends to drop and act as another CB with the aim to not get outnumbered on the back line, keep them out of the box (still stepping up - see Tottenham away) and keep them on the flanks. 
 
So hopefully that explains some of the high line = no press. Shape, disrupt opponent rhythm, force them to play a certain way, and conserve energy. 

Edited January 27 by DJBOB

[CVByrne]

7 hours ago, DJBOB said:

I wondered this for a while and watched as many of his matches at Villarreal and other clubs as well as his interviews and have only begun to understand it. 
 
It’s important to understand that Unai sets us up out of possession differently than a lot of the high press disciplines that Klopp influenced. Our first remit is to get in shape, do not allow passes through the middle, do not allow opponents to get into rhythm, and force them out wide. More Dyche than Klopp. 
 
Given our out of possession objectives, when we lose the ball, we do not engage in a frantic counter press. Maybe one or two players will make a token effort near the ball but everyone else will rush back into shape. 
  
Once the opponent has the ball, we generally engage them in 3 different phases. 
 
1) 442 diamond shape trigger press - look at the Brighton home win to see this at full effectiveness. When the ball is at the keeper, they wait for the keeper to pass which triggers the press from the strikers. One striker presses the ball and the other sweeps in behind to prevent a switch or pass back to the keeper. Luiz presses high on the CM’s to prevent easy passes in and the wide mid near the ball has to press hard against the fullback. The opposite side wide mid has the responsibility of the other half of the pitch. This is our only true high press scheme designed to trap the opponent on one half of the pitch and force an errant pass to capitalize on. 
 

2) 442 mid block - the objective here is to remain compact and tight, no passes in the block between the two strikers, the two CM’s, and the CB’s. Our wide mids block the half spaces and we stay narrow to force passes wide. Where we differ from our 442’s is that we basically invite teams to try and play over the top, trusting not only our defender’s pace, but also their ability to step up based on the shape of the passer, and of course Emi. 
 
Now - this is probably where people are a touch confused. High line = high press, right? There are a couple of reasonings behind this. One is to stay compact and avoid being overstretched and getting passes in between the lines. The other is to conserve energy and play the long game. You saw how Chelsea tired in their press in the second half.

The third is that there’s some game playing here by Unai. Is it better to force the opponent to a certain way of playing, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of playing that way? What I’ve noticed is that teams rarely cut us open with sweeping passing moves with tiki taka because of this mid block. It’s all very punt and run, a dangerous game but predictable and prevents the opponent from getting into a rhythm. 
 
3) 532 or 541 - usually with the lead or when we’re under the kosh. Kamara tends to drop and act as another CB with the aim to not get outnumbered on the back line, keep them out of the box (still stepping up - see Tottenham away) and keep them on the flanks. 
 
So hopefully that explains some of the high line = no press. Shape, disrupt opponent rhythm, force them to play a certain way, and conserve energy. 

I think there's a few additional points.

It's that we are tactically flexible and each game has it's own tweaked gameplan. For example when we beat City we engaged in a high intense press and won lots of turnovers in their half.

Secondly the part in bold I don't agree with, we do engage in a counterpress when we lose the ball in all our games and this is where our high line helps us. 

When opposition are building from the back we play our high line but din't play an intense press in majority of games, we have pressing triggers, we use our 2 forwards to block passes into midfield and our wide midfielders press when ball is played out wide. We want the opposition to try play low % balls direct behind our high line, win the offside or have Martinez mop up and this is how we exert control. 

In no game since the Liverpool loss at Anfield have we been outplayed and down and out in a game. We always are able to exert our game and control on opposition for spells of every game. Take our win over Arsenal, scoring first and conserving energy when in a positive game state is being in control. We held a counter attacking threat and spells of possession which was what was needed to get the win. 

That Emery has managed this in a year is amazing work. I think he's such a smart coach we will evolve our tactical approach to keep us from being predictable and being worked out. Recalling KKH, the signing of Nedeljkovic shows Emery understands we need to use both full backs as attacking threats. Having a 6 drop into RCB and a RB provide the attacking threat has worked the best for us when you have a player of the quality of Kamara available. 

[tinker]

11 hours ago, nepal_villan said:

Don't quite get playing a high line, but then failing to press the other team. Isn't that just a recipe for disaster? Would love to be educated on how this tactic is supposed to work.

Another point is we are asking Martinez to play a sweeping role, he mentioned it in his interview after the Chelsea game. With him playing that role the ball through us has to be perfect for him not to sweep it up, hit to hard, or for our defenders not to be able to challenge their player, hit to soft. You can then add the multiple occasions they are caught offside. 

The system looks easy to beat but it isn't, Emery has devised a system that works if all the players are are song and 9/10 they are.

[gwi1890]

9 hours ago, DJBOB said:

I wondered this for a while and watched as many of his matches at Villarreal and other clubs as well as his interviews and have only begun to understand it. 
 
It’s important to understand that Unai sets us up out of possession differently than a lot of the high press disciplines that Klopp influenced. Our first remit is to get in shape, do not allow passes through the middle, do not allow opponents to get into rhythm, and force them out wide. More Dyche than Klopp. 
 
Given our out of possession objectives, when we lose the ball, we do not engage in a frantic counter press. Maybe one or two players will make a token effort near the ball but everyone else will rush back into shape. 
  
Once the opponent has the ball, we generally engage them in 3 different phases. 
 
1) 442 diamond shape trigger press - look at the Brighton home win to see this at full effectiveness. When the ball is at the keeper, they wait for the keeper to pass which triggers the press from the strikers. One striker presses the ball and the other sweeps in behind to prevent a switch or pass back to the keeper. Luiz presses high on the CM’s to prevent easy passes in and the wide mid near the ball has to press hard against the fullback. The opposite side wide mid has the responsibility of the other half of the pitch. This is our only true high press scheme designed to trap the opponent on one half of the pitch and force an errant pass to capitalize on. 
 

2) 442 mid block - the objective here is to remain compact and tight, no passes in the block between the two strikers, the two CM’s, and the CB’s. Our wide mids block the half spaces and we stay narrow to force passes wide. Where we differ from our 442’s is that we basically invite teams to try and play over the top, trusting not only our defender’s pace, but also their ability to step up based on the shape of the passer, and of course Emi. 
 
Now - this is probably where people are a touch confused. High line = high press, right? There are a couple of reasonings behind this. One is to stay compact and avoid being overstretched and getting passes in between the lines. The other is to conserve energy and play the long game. You saw how Chelsea tired in their press in the second half.

The third is that there’s some game playing here by Unai. Is it better to force the opponent to a certain way of playing, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of playing that way? What I’ve noticed is that teams rarely cut us open with sweeping passing moves with tiki taka because of this mid block. It’s all very punt and run, a dangerous game but predictable and prevents the opponent from getting into a rhythm. 
 
3) 532 or 541 - usually with the lead or when we’re under the kosh. Kamara tends to drop and act as another CB with the aim to not get outnumbered on the back line, keep them out of the box (still stepping up - see Tottenham away) and keep them on the flanks. 
 
So hopefully that explains some of the high line = no press. Shape, disrupt opponent rhythm, force them to play a certain way, and conserve energy. 

Excellent analysis , imagine if Sky offered something like this.

Edited January 28 by gwi1890

[DJBOB]

2 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I think there's a few additional points.

It's that we are tactically flexible and each game has it's own tweaked gameplan. For example when we beat City we engaged in a high intense press and won lots of turnovers in their half.

Secondly the part in bold I don't agree with, we do engage in a counterpress when we lose the ball in all our games and this is where our high line helps us. 

When opposition are building from the back we play our high line but din't play an intense press in majority of games, we have pressing triggers, we use our 2 forwards to block passes into midfield and our wide midfielders press when ball is played out wide. We want the opposition to try play low % balls direct behind our high line, win the offside or have Martinez mop up and this is how we exert control. 

In no game since the Liverpool loss at Anfield have we been outplayed and down and out in a game. We always are able to exert our game and control on opposition for spells of every game. Take our win over Arsenal, scoring first and conserving energy when in a positive game state is being in control. We held a counter attacking threat and spells of possession which was what was needed to get the win. 

That Emery has managed this in a year is amazing work. I think he's such a smart coach we will evolve our tactical approach to keep us from being predictable and being worked out. Recalling KKH, the signing of Nedeljkovic shows Emery understands we need to use both full backs as attacking threats. Having a 6 drop into RCB and a RB provide the attacking threat has worked the best for us when you have a player of the quality of Kamara available. 

I’m not privy to the advanced defensive statistics like pressures per defensive action and etc but I really don’t think we engage in a counter press when losing possession. At the very basic statistic, we are dead last in tackles in the attacking 3rd, indicating we generally do not try to recover the ball when losing it there and do not press high.  
 
 

[DJBOB]

3 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I think there's a few additional points.

It's that we are tactically flexible and each game has it's own tweaked gameplan. For example when we beat City we engaged in a high intense press and won lots of turnovers in their half.

Secondly the part in bold I don't agree with, we do engage in a counterpress when we lose the ball in all our games and this is where our high line helps us. 

When opposition are building from the back we play our high line but din't play an intense press in majority of games, we have pressing triggers, we use our 2 forwards to block passes into midfield and our wide midfielders press when ball is played out wide. We want the opposition to try play low % balls direct behind our high line, win the offside or have Martinez mop up and this is how we exert control. 

In no game since the Liverpool loss at Anfield have we been outplayed and down and out in a game. We always are able to exert our game and control on opposition for spells of every game. Take our win over Arsenal, scoring first and conserving energy when in a positive game state is being in control. We held a counter attacking threat and spells of possession which was what was needed to get the win. 

That Emery has managed this in a year is amazing work. I think he's such a smart coach we will evolve our tactical approach to keep us from being predictable and being worked out. Recalling KKH, the signing of Nedeljkovic shows Emery understands we need to use both full backs as attacking threats. Having a 6 drop into RCB and a RB provide the attacking threat has worked the best for us when you have a player of the quality of Kamara available. 

And I agree with the City plan. It is the same principles as the first phase diamond press with a few tweaks. See below a snapshot. Diaby on the ball, Watkins shadowing the pass back to the keeper, Kamara and Bailey tight on their markers in the ball side of the pitch and McGinn the barrier to the other half of the pitch. 

Pin them to a side, force them to play long or a risky combination in the middle. Here, Gvardiol plays to Bernardo which Bailey eventually intercept. 

[CVByrne]

6 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I’m not privy to the advanced defensive statistics like pressures per defensive action and etc but I really don’t think we engage in a counter press when losing possession. At the very basic statistic, we are dead last in tackles in the attacking 3rd, indicating we generally do not try to recover the ball when losing it there and do not press high.  
 
 

We don't press high, which is where you will get the high numbers of tackles in the attacking 3rd. So when you look at % of a teams tackles in the attacking 3rd you see all the high press teams there, Liverpool, Arsenal, United, Chelsea, Brighton, Spurs and City. 

Counter pressing is us pressing when we lose the ball to try quickly win it back and we do this in every game. It will show up a much smaller number of times in sheer number of tackles as opposed to when you engage opposition out of possession. We engage in our press in mid areas when the opposition play the ball wide and we're in top 4 in terms of % of our tackles in Mid 3rd.