Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Keener window-cleaner]

4 hours ago, TRO said:

I am loving the way we play, but I feel we are not there yet, despite massive strides forward.....but really enjoying it, overall.

However, I still get nervy, when we are defending or without the ball.

maybe, I shouldn't be, but I am.

Exactly, it's just wonderful to see that we finally have a settled way of playing, having possession and dominating games. We are not reliant on individuals, we are like a well oiled machine that different players can go into. This was so nice to see against an inferior team like Hibs, before I would have been nervous as I'm used to see us struggle against the weaker teams where we are supposed to have the initiative. Now I'm confident, I know we will go out and dominate.

I also get that sentiment of nervyness in defence with the high line. But having looked at it closer in pre season and our first games of the season, I feel more confident. Yes we have a high line, but as Martinez plays so far out of goal, and as we have several players on their toes to rush back and who are fast (like Konsa, Digne, Kamara), the times we are overplayed in our high line there are actually on very few occations that either Martinez doesn't get the ball first or one of our defenders manages to rush back and disturb enough to hinder a clear chance. It hough does requie that we have at least one CB who is quick on the turn and really fast. Hence Konsas big importance. 

One advantage with the high line and the 4-4-2 is that when we don't press, we get really compact with the whole team congested in the middle of the pitch, making it quite difficult to play through.

So in essence, my same worries as you have are not as strong anymore   

[CVByrne]

8 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

I paid some extra attention to the formation as well when I saw the line up and agrre with you, in defence the basic formation was the 4-4-2 we are used to, but with Konsa RB and Cash RW. 

In attack we often did what we usually do: the LB pushes up, LCB drifts out wide left and creates a back three with the RCB and the RB. The LW drifts centrally and creates space for the LB to push forward.

Then as said there are often some tweaks in the formation and tactics, for example I thought Cash played a bit more as a traditional winger, whereas Bailey in the last games played slightly higher up.

In addition to what you have said one feature I think I noticed was that when we were under much pressure in defence, it at times looked like the wingers dropped back on the outside of the full backs, making it almost a straight 6 man backline.

Another thing is that in the basic 4-4-2 in defence it looks like Kamara has a slightly more defensive position than Luiz. I think that's interesting, I would have thought that Luiz and Tielemans would be the first choice, I thought Tielemans was an even more intelligent player and better passer than Kamara. But as Kamara has been first choice, and played in that seemingly more defensive position, I guess he is picked as he is better defensively and faster than Tielemans. Perhaps better suited to our high defensive line. 

Exactly this, we defend in a 4 4 2 because it's such a good defensive formation with the right spacings. In possession we have 3 CBs and then LB and RM are the "wingers" in terms of the width. LM is a "defensive 10" and the second striker is the "attacking 10" one dropping deep from front line and other moving centrally from midfield.

It's exactly what he did at Villareal, Estupian as the LB "winger" and Foyth as the RB but part of back 3 in possession. Coquelin a CM in LM and Pina/Chukwueze a winger in RM. Moreno/Lo Celso dropping off the front line to play 10. So the template is the same.

Kamara is superb in ball recoveries and defensive positioning. You need that type of player to give more licence to his partner Luiz to get forward and be more progressive. Kamara is also important for defending set pieces as he's tall and a former CB. 

[Keener window-cleaner]

6 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Exactly this, we defend in a 4 4 2 because it's such a good defensive formation with the right spacings. In possession we have 3 CBs and then LB and RM are the "wingers" in terms of the width. LM is a "defensive 10" and the second striker is the "attacking 10" one dropping deep from front line and other moving centrally from midfield.

It's exactly what he did at Villareal, Estupian as the LB "winger" and Foyth as the RB but part of back 3 in possession. Coquelin a CM in LM and Pina/Chukwueze a winger in RM. Moreno/Lo Celso dropping off the front line to play 10. So the template is the same.

Kamara is superb in ball recoveries and defensive positioning. You need that type of player to give more licence to his partner Luiz to get forward and be more progressive. Kamara is also important for defending set pieces as he's tall and a former CB. 

Fully agree, there are some interesting things with that. One is why it's always the LB that pushes forward and becomes a LW and not the RB. Do you remember if we have done the same but with the RB instead?

Another thing is that although this tactic is brilliant in it's simplicity, I wonder why opposition teams haven't adapted and thought out ways to exploit it, especially as Emery has played this way for so long. As a comparision I'm thinking about when Sheff U the first year they went up to the PL some seasons ago had that novelty in their tactics with a 3 man defence where the LCB or RCB joined the attacks and came in a second wave. Some other teams did the same the season after, but that was then quite easily exploited and most stopped with it. I think the same will happen with the Man C/Liverpool current feature where a full back drifts to central midfield in attack. From what I have seen we haven't been that exploited with the LB pushing forward as LW. 

 

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I think with all the changes to the laws, I am not sure, in depth what the offiside laws are anymore......I used to know, but now ,it seems complex.

Is it only the goal scorer that has to be offside?......any other player in an offside position, is ok, is it?

It used to be any player in an offside position, was offside and a goal ruled out.

My brain hurts.

It's only offside if the player in the offside position "deliberately" affects the play. But it is also technically offside if a player "interferes" with the opponent's ability to defend the play. We had a goal ruled off in the United cup game because of this screening pattern but Newcastle were more "clever" with it. So you can't run the equivalent of a basketball screen but if your body is in the way - then it's not 'deliberate.' I still contend that Burn pulled Cash to move the offside line but also didn't let him track the ball. This should have been flagged as a deliberate  foul/offside on Burn similar to our set play against United in last year's cup but the same law wasn't applied here.

Equally - even though Isak is offside when the ball is played in the first phase, he is not "deliberately" affecting the play. He is clearly onside in the second phase.

Manchester City also use this similar tactic where one of their players shoves an opponent, therefore deliberately affecting the offside line but it's seen as just 'physical play' instead of the tactical foul that it is.

[Keener window-cleaner]

55 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

It's only offside if the player in the offside position "deliberately" affects the play. But it is also technically offside if a player "interferes" with the opponent's ability to defend the play. We had a goal ruled off in the United cup game because of this screening pattern but Newcastle were more "clever" with it. So you can't run the equivalent of a basketball screen but if your body is in the way - then it's not 'deliberate.' I still contend that Burn pulled Cash to move the offside line but also didn't let him track the ball. This should have been flagged as a deliberate  foul/offside on Burn similar to our set play against United in last year's cup but the same law wasn't applied here.

Equally - even though Isak is offside when the ball is played in the first phase, he is not "deliberately" affecting the play. He is clearly onside in the second phase.

Manchester City also use this similar tactic where one of their players shoves an opponent, therefore deliberately affecting the offside line but it's seen as just 'physical play' instead of the tactical foul that it is.

 

That's really good explained. I may be conservative here but I dont like that rule. I think a player who stands offside always affects the play, as a defender you need to pay attention to him nevertheless and you need to think of where he might be in the next phase of play. It also becomes too arbitrary with the assessments of if he deliberately affects the play or interferes with the play. 

[MotoMkali]

2 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

Fully agree, there are some interesting things with that. One is why it's always the LB that pushes forward and becomes a LW and not the RB. Do you remember if we have done the same but with the RB instead?

Another thing is that although this tactic is brilliant in it's simplicity, I wonder why opposition teams haven't adapted and thought out ways to exploit it, especially as Emery has played this way for so long. As a comparision I'm thinking about when Sheff U the first year they went up to the PL some seasons ago had that novelty in their tactics with a 3 man defence where the LCB or RCB joined the attacks and came in a second wave. Some other teams did the same the season after, but that was then quite easily exploited and most stopped with it. I think the same will happen with the Man C/Liverpool current feature where a full back drifts to central midfield in attack. From what I have seen we haven't been that exploited with the LB pushing forward as LW. 

 

It's not nearly as effective because ollie is a left biased striker, which means you'd be putting 2 wingers to the left of a player who is already on the left. Just doesn't really work. Whereas you can put 2 wingers on the right of ollie and they'll have 2 distinct channels to work in. The LM can drop into the hole on the centre of the pitch when ollie goes left and the LB can support.

It could probably work better with Duran on the pitch instead of ollie because he's a lefty so will probably be right biased. 

[CVByrne]

10 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

Fully agree, there are some interesting things with that. One is why it's always the LB that pushes forward and becomes a LW and not the RB. Do you remember if we have done the same but with the RB instead?

Another thing is that although this tactic is brilliant in it's simplicity, I wonder why opposition teams haven't adapted and thought out ways to exploit it, especially as Emery has played this way for so long. As a comparision I'm thinking about when Sheff U the first year they went up to the PL some seasons ago had that novelty in their tactics with a 3 man defence where the LCB or RCB joined the attacks and came in a second wave. Some other teams did the same the season after, but that was then quite easily exploited and most stopped with it. I think the same will happen with the Man C/Liverpool current feature where a full back drifts to central midfield in attack. From what I have seen we haven't been that exploited with the LB pushing forward as LW. 

 

We did in pre-season when we played Pau in LB, Cash was the attacking RB in that game. I think Emery see's characteristics he likes in Cash getting up and down the right side like he gets from Moreno on left. I think the idea is to be less predictable that we are always getting LB as the wide forward. When we can do it either side. I feel Emery wanted Pau Mings and Konsa as the back three as it has the defensive skills and recovery speed of Mings there to free Pau up the most. Carlos is a good fit for the role too and hopefully does well and Konsa will have to deputise when needed. 

I think there isn't really anything to clearly exploit specifically with how Emery sets up. 4 4 2 block is an age old block, we play a high line so space is behind the defence to attack. Then you see where the space is in our attacking shape, it's usually out wide as we play a narrow shape based on skilled quick passing so getting the ball to other flank in transition is where space is. 

[Jas10]

 

[CVByrne]

9 hours ago, Jas10 said:

 

Carlos played the through ball from CB to Watkins who layed off first time and that set up the Diaby to Cash goal. McGinn created the passing lane. 

I've this feeling Carlos is going to have an incredible season. Seems a natural in the role we are asking him to play at base of back 3 in possession.

[KentVillan]

21 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

Another thing is that although this tactic is brilliant in it's simplicity, I wonder why opposition teams haven't adapted and thought out ways to exploit it, especially as Emery has played this way for so long. As a comparision I'm thinking about when Sheff U the first year they went up to the PL some seasons ago had that novelty in their tactics with a 3 man defence where the LCB or RCB joined the attacks and came in a second wave. Some other teams did the same the season after, but that was then quite easily exploited and most stopped with it. I think the same will happen with the Man C/Liverpool current feature where a full back drifts to central midfield in attack. From what I have seen we haven't been that exploited with the LB pushing forward as LW. 

He tweaks the personnel and the gameplans within the framework, and it's all so well drilled, with everyone knowing their job and knowing the Plan B. The gaps (e.g. when LB pushes forward) are anticipated by the other players on the pitch, and everything closes up again.

Plus if it isn't working, Emery will change mid-game, often with aggressive substitutions and formation changes.

I think that's how he gets away with having such a consistent Plan A.

[Jas10]

24 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Carlos played the through ball from CB to Watkins who layed off first time and that set up the Diaby to Cash goal. McGinn created the passing lane. 

I've this feeling Carlos is going to have an incredible season. Seems a natural in the role we are asking him to play at base of back 3 in possession.

Me too, I have a lot of faith in Diego. He’s class and has the qualities we so sorely need… just has to get as fit and as sharp as possible asap. A real asset.

[DJBOB]

21 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

Fully agree, there are some interesting things with that. One is why it's always the LB that pushes forward and becomes a LW and not the RB. Do you remember if we have done the same but with the RB instead?

Another thing is that although this tactic is brilliant in it's simplicity, I wonder why opposition teams haven't adapted and thought out ways to exploit it, especially as Emery has played this way for so long. As a comparision I'm thinking about when Sheff U the first year they went up to the PL some seasons ago had that novelty in their tactics with a 3 man defence where the LCB or RCB joined the attacks and came in a second wave. Some other teams did the same the season after, but that was then quite easily exploited and most stopped with it. I think the same will happen with the Man C/Liverpool current feature where a full back drifts to central midfield in attack. From what I have seen we haven't been that exploited with the LB pushing forward as LW. 

 

The 3-2 rest defense means that unless the opponent commits and leaves 3 up top, it's hardly ever exploitable. Despite the misgivings about the high line and some of our defenders, only City, Brentford, and Newcastle have given up less goals than Villa in the calendar year. Our defense is very secure which makes it not all too surprising that Unai has focused on progressive defenders to be able to exploit low to mid blocks and then pace and power up top (Diaby and Zaniolo) to be able to score in transition.

To progress, we need to be able to score consistently. Our biggest area of weakness on defense continues to be corners and set pieces.

[duke313]

I seen a montage recently on Twitter of Gerrard's (I know) long range goals for Liverpool, and watching it realised a lot of them were freekicks that were laid off to him to hammer.

We never really see goals like that these days.  Was thinking with Tieleman's having a thunderous shot, it should be something we should look to exploit.  

[CVByrne]

 

Interesting how all the players Emery has signed are progressive ball carriers. Pau, Moreno, Diaby, Zaniolo, Lenglet. Tielemans a progressive passer. Also Emery used box midfield before Pep. It's great that Emery is really the cutting edge of tactics and systems 

[mikeyp102]

What was really notable last night was how long the defenders were prepared to stop play and put their foot on the ball, waiting for someone to step out and press. Then we’d quickly knock it around the player into the space they have left. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by mikeyp102

[Keyblade]

Been trying to think, with everybody fit what's our strongest team?

                      Martinez

Cash.       Konsa      Pau     Moreno

                 Kamara     Luiz

    McGinn                     Ramsey

                 Diaby

                      Watkins

Bench: Olsen, Digne, Carlos, Bailey, Tielemans, Duran, Lenglet, Zaniolo, Dendoncker

That's some bench man.

[villan95]

4 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Been trying to think, with everybody fit what's our strongest team?

                      Martinez

Cash.       Konsa      Pau     Moreno

                 Kamara     Luiz

    McGinn                     Ramsey

                 Diaby

                      Watkins

Bench: Olsen, Digne, Carlos, Bailey, Tielemans, Duran, Lenglet, Zaniolo, Dendoncker

That's some bench man.

I think that's not far off. I'd maybe have Konsa RB and Carlos CB though. Also there will be matches which will suit players like Bailey or Zaniolo more. As you say that's the strongest the bench/squad has looked I can ever remember!

[villan95]

We're looking good to me. Traore should be an option on the right instead of course but couldn't fit him there.

[CVByrne]

5 hours ago, villan95 said:

We're looking good to me. Traore should be an option on the right instead of course but couldn't fit him there.

Very good squad with Lenglet and Traore the temporary replacements for Buendia and Mings

I'd say Zaniolo would start as striker if Watkins was out in PL

I also think Cash is our right footed winger option. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by CVByrne

[sne]

• Tyrone Mings Knee injury
• Bertrand Traore Knock
• Philippe Coutinho Thigh injury
• Tim Iroegbunam Knock
• Alex Moreno Hamstring strain
• Kortney Hause Knee injury
• Emiliano Buendia Knee injury
• Jacob Ramsey Ankle injury

Add Carlos to the list. Absolutely unreal